Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

I think when asked about Obika and Mandron, Kettlewell gave a very good diplomatic answer. I think it would take quite a set of circumstances (like Morelos at Rangers) for a manager to publicly declare that a player was being shown the door. The answer definitely translated more to "we are evaluating all options" rather than "they are both being offered deals". I wouldn't be surprised if we perhaps kept one of them, but I really can't see both.

With Aitchison, I am astounded that anyone has the ability to have marked him as shite. He started two league games (one out wide) in which proved to be the last two games for a capitulating manager. Since then, his biggest run out has been 24 minutes. It's actually been a luxury that Van Veen has been so good that we've not actually really needed to use him. I can't see Aitchison himself wanting to stay anyway, he featured far more for Barnsley in the first half of the season than he has done since signing for us.

I would love us to run with a smaller squad next season and not have to rip it up and start again in January. I know @Desp alluded to the McCall days yesterday, where we'd have about 14/15 senior players and the rest of the bench filled with youth players. If we worked on getting as much quality in to our first XI as possible, that would be a preferable route for me. I'm just not sure if since then the quality of players we are able to attract is lesser and we try and sign more players in hope that by the law of averages we'll be able to field something of a competitive team. I think McCall was also fairly lucky in that he only ever really lost Steven Saunders to a long-term injury. 

[thisGRAEME]

45 minutes ago, CoF said:

Time to join the Craig Wighton bald at 25 club 

 

 

It comes to us all. I reckon my next haircut is my last one, but that's where we are.

_{In a quiet voice}: I actually though Saturday was the best we've seen out of Aitchison by a distance. Was involved, was engaged, could do better, but the first time I've seen something there.

[Swello]

14 minutes ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

I would love us to run with a smaller squad next season and not have to rip it up and start again in January. I know @Desp alluded to the McCall days yesterday, where we'd have about 14/15 senior players and the rest of the bench filled with youth players. If we worked on getting as much quality in to our first XI as possible, that would be a preferable route for me. I'm just not sure if since then the quality of players we are able to attract is lesser and we try and sign more players in hope that by the law of averages we'll be able to field something of a competitive team. I think McCall was also fairly lucky in that he only ever really lost Steven Saunders to a long-term injury. 

Much as I'd like to do something similar - we can't really re-create what McCall had - because he had a very small senior squad and he overspent quite considerably so that might be the highest quality team we'll ever put out. 

[Handsome_Devil]

24 minutes ago, thisGRAEME said:

It comes to us all. I reckon my next haircut is my last one, but that's where we are.

_{In a quiet voice}: I actually though Saturday was the best we've seen out of Aitchison by a distance. Was involved, was engaged, could do better, but the first time I've seen something there.

I've nothing against Aitchison but whenever I see him I find myself asking if there is really no youth on the books capable of doing pretty much the same in these 10 minute cameos.

I appreciate he was signed under different circumstances but it's probably only politeness which has stopped us crankshawing his arse back down to Barnsley already.

[joewarkfanclub]

58 minutes ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

I think when asked about Obika and Mandron, Kettlewell gave a very good diplomatic answer. I think it would take quite a set of circumstances (like Morelos at Rangers) for a manager to publicly declare that a player was being shown the door. The answer definitely translated more to "we are evaluating all options" rather than "they are both being offered deals". I wouldn't be surprised if we perhaps kept one of them, but I really can't see both.

With Aitchison, I am astounded that anyone has the ability to have marked him as shite. He started two league games (one out wide) in which proved to be the last two games for a capitulating manager. Since then, his biggest run out has been 24 minutes. It's actually been a luxury that Van Veen has been so good that we've not actually really needed to use him. I can't see Aitchison himself wanting to stay anyway, he featured far more for Barnsley in the first half of the season than he has done since signing for us.

I would love us to run with a smaller squad next season and not have to rip it up and start again in January. I know @Desp alluded to the McCall days yesterday, where we'd have about 14/15 senior players and the rest of the bench filled with youth players. If we worked on getting as much quality in to our first XI as possible, that would be a preferable route for me. I'm just not sure if since then the quality of players we are able to attract is lesser and we try and sign more players in hope that by the law of averages we'll be able to field something of a competitive team. I think McCall was also fairly lucky in that he only ever really lost Steven Saunders to a long-term injury. 

I think with McCalls squad we were paying pretty hefty bonuses to attract the kind of talent that we did then. Not a bad plan as it meant any monies paid out were performance related.

However, I seem to recall that although we finished 2nd and the extra prize money that entailed, we actually ended up losing money due to the bonuses that were paid out, so we obviously hadnt done our calculations properly!

[capt_oats]

14 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

I think with McCalls squad we were paying pretty hefty bonuses to attract the kind of talent that we did then. Not a bad plan as it meant any monies paid out were performance related.

However, I seem to recall that although we finished 2nd and the extra prize money that entailed, we actually ended up losing money due to the bonuses that were paid out, so we obviously hadn't done our calculations properly!

Fwiw these were our profit/losses during McCall's time - cheers for that Leeann:

2010/11 - 6th, Scottish Cup runners up, LC semi-final - £541,863 - McCall appointed 30th December 2010
2011/12 - 3rd, Scottish Cup QF, LC 3rd round - (£600,000)
2012/13 - 2nd, Scottish Cup 4th round, LC 3rd round - (£184,800)
2013/14 - 2nd, Scottish Cup 4th round, LC QF - (£184,854)
2014/15 - 11th, Scottish Cup 4th round, LC 3rd round - (£1,150,000) - McCall resigns 2nd November 2014

Edited May 23, 2023 by capt_oats

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

I'm under no illusions that we will ever be chasing 2nd whilst making a loss ever again. I just mean theoretically, spend the majority of our budget on a starting XI rather than a big squad.

For example, when Grezza was tying himself in knots last season with his team, we had Donnelly, Grimshaw, Cornelius, O'Hara, Shaw, Slattery, Goss, Maguire and Tierney all competing to play in central midfield.

By my reckoning, only 15 players have started a game under Kettlewell and 8 of them (Kelly, Butcher, Casey, McGinn, Furlong, Goss, Spittal and Van Veen) have started every game.

I would love to see us replicate that over a season, but it involves a lot of luck with injuries and getting the transfer business spot on. I do agree that doing this in replacing 23 league goals from one man may prove to be difficult.

@Handsome Devil - we signed Jack Aitchison permanently from Barnsley, which in any case would've prevented us punting him back down there. We'll still be paying Crankshaw's wages (or whatever % we were when he was here) so I assume he must have been a bad egg of sorts to be punted like that.

 

[Handsome_Devil]

6 minutes ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

 

@Handsome Devil - we signed Jack Aitchison permanently from Barnsley, which in any case would've prevented us punting him back down there. We'll still be paying Crankshaw's wages (or whatever % we were when he was here) so I assume he must have been a bad egg of sorts to be punted like that.

 

Ah fair point, I get confused with all the loans and signed till summers...

Either way, if you're the youth team forward, you must surely be watching him be in squads, get minutes etc and think 'wait a minute, what about my pathway...?'

[thisGRAEME]

18 minutes ago, Handsome_Devil said:

I've nothing against Aitchison but whenever I see him I find myself asking if there is really no youth on the books capable of doing pretty much the same in these 10 minute cameos.

I appreciate he was signed under different circumstances but it's probably only politeness which has stopped us crankshawing his arse back down to Barnsley already.

Aye, I don't think it's unfair to have expected a little more out of him (It's not like he hadn't been playing at Barnsley like a lot of the laddies we collect in January), he scored in his last game for them. 

That said, from the off it feels like he's been running uphill, from making his debut after stepping out the motor, to a system where his attributes are completely unnecessary.

[well fan for life]

We emptied Shields and signed Aitchison. It's an upgrade, even if it's a small one. 

[YassinMoutaouakil]

What's the stance r.e running on the pitch if we relegate United?

[well fan for life]

3 minutes ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

What's the stance r.e running on the pitch if we relegate United?

All of us + SOD:

[thisGRAEME]

8 minutes ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

What's the stance r.e running on the pitch if we relegate United?

[capt_oats]

1 hour ago, well fan for life said:

We emptied Shields and signed Aitchison. It's an upgrade, even if it's a small one. 

This is kind of it for me.

To me Aitchison was a replacement for Shields and/or Efford (given his injury). Which is fine, we'd loaned one out (whose confidence was absolutely shot) and the other was long term injured. It was a short term deal so we weren't on the hook for it.

It just leaves us looking at having a bunch of *options* for the same role and gives Kettlewell decisions to make. @crazylegsjoe_mfc is spot on with the post above about having a whole bunch of players who essentially do the same thing.

See also the fact that we've got Spittal, Tierney and Danzaki for the #10. That's before you even ask the question of what Lennon Miller is? Is he a #6, an #8 or a #10? Which brings us back to the pathway conversation.

I think it's wild that anyone's made any sort of judgement on Aitchison one way or another but as @Handsome_Devil's post alludes to -given where we are now, how do we square the idea of offering a "pathway" if we've got a collection of Aitchison, Efford and Shields ahead of...for example Ferrie who seems a similar-ish player?

None of that is to say it can't be sorted out but it's still all a bit messy tbh.

Edited May 23, 2023 by capt_oats

[Mr Hahn]

21 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

This is kind of it for me.

To me Aitchison was a replacement for Shields and/or Efford (given his injury). Which is fine, we'd loaned one out and the other was long term injured. It was a short term deal so we weren't on the hook for it.

It just leaves us looking at having a bunch of *options* for the same role and gives Kettlewell decisions to make and @crazylegsjoe_mfc is spot on with the post above about having a whole bunch of players who essentially do the same thing.

See also the fact that we've got Spittal, Tierney and Danzaki for the #10. That's before you even ask the question of what Lennon Miller is? Is he a #6, an #8 or a #10? Which brings us back to the pathway conversation.

I think it's wild that anyone's made any sort of judgement on Aitchison one way or another but as @Handsome_Devil's post alludes to -given where we are now, how do we square the idea of offering a "pathway" if we've got a collection of Aitchison, Efford and Shields ahead of...for example Ferrie who seems a similar-ish player?

None of that is to say it can't be sorted out but it's still all a bit messy tbh.

I'd agree with this. FWIW, I've actually thought Aitchison looked quite good when I've seen him, especially on Saturday. Seemed combative, went on a couple of nice runs and, like has been said, he's better than Shields for me.

I'm not massively familiar with who we've got coming through unless they've turned out for the first team but Miller seems to be real prospect based on his limited appearances (given his age) and the fact he's regularly featuring for the national side in his age group. We can't afford to do the same with him as we've done with Johnston where our next highly sellable asset is stuck behind two others, particularly as O'Donnell had severely lost form for the best part of 2 years and Max didn't seem to be getting a look in.

On that basis, if Miller is a #6 or even an #8, does that not pretty much decide Maguire's fate for us? I'd be looking to keep Goss and Cornelius of those OOC in CM and be trying to phase Miller into the team as he gets older and matures. Spittal is an essential player for us these days and obviously is a keep and Slattery is fine to keep for another year if no takers in the summer. For CM, if we can keep those 4 plus Miller and other youths who play there, I'd say we thank Paton and Maguire but part come season end.

[well fan for life]

4 minutes ago, Mr Hahn said:

does that not pretty much decide Maguire's fate for us?

[Handsome_Devil]

1 hour ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

What's the stance r.e running on the pitch if we relegate United?

I'm almost more interested in Tannadice and, to a lesser extent, Dingwall, than our game tomorrow.

A United/St J double and they can't go down on Sunday.

A Killie/County double and they're down before Sunday.

Anything else and it's all up for grabs... fascinating stuff.

[Pettigrew]

3 hours ago, Handsome_Devil said:

I appreciate he was signed under different circumstances but it's probably only politeness which has stopped us crankshawing his arse back down to Barnsley already.

Very much liking the verb  - "to Crankshaw".

[craigkillie]

5 minutes ago, Handsome_Devil said:

I'm almost more interested in Tannadice and, to a lesser extent, Dingwall, than our game tomorrow.

A United/St J double and they can't go down on Sunday.

If this happened they could still go down with a defeat on Sunday and a Killie/County draw.

[Handsome_Devil]

2 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

If this happened they could still go down with a defeat on Sunday and a Killie/County draw.

True, for some reason I thought they'd a better gd.

That's good then, my main desire for Wednesday is an outcome which sees as many away fans as possible come to see a game with all options open. 

Other than us being confirmed in seventh ideally.