Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[Alanos]

1 hour ago, capt_oats said:

Also agree with @thisGRAEME about keeping McGinn around.

OK, you’ve all swung me round. We’ll keep him assuming he’s not on huge wages.

Good squad player.

[Kapowzer]

Said before, due to the number of personnel we have (in theory) leaving the building SK can really shape the team as he see's fit. This summer certainly has a rebuild feel about it rather than a tinkering.

I'll be interested to see what business he does, securing players to come to Motherwell is an easier sell than Ross County (money aside). Add on a decent core of key players staying on, as we all know with the nature of this league, make some astute signings and you are definitely in the mix for top 6/Europe.

I mean Aberdeen can't be as mediocre yet again surely?

I think someone pointed out 100 pages back that outwith the OF clubs in this league can't stick rigidly to a formation or tactic throughout the season. We don't have the players to be 7's and above in every part of their game which you need to do that for 38 games. Well players will be a few 4/5/6's out of 10 in them, it is why they've signed with us.

Guys like McGinn offer a manager the flexibility to mix things up and offer cover to a number of positions through injury. Definitely serviceable in a back 4, doesn't enthuse me as a wingback however.

I'd think it's much easier to go to the market to find rudimentary left and right backs than effective wingbacks. But as your opposition in a 12 team league get to know what you're up to pretty soon it's imperative you can adapt and not stick stoically to something as our last three gaffers did for the vast majority of their tenure. SK appears to be more adaptive.

The only thing we know for certain is, Ketts^TM will play KvV with a partner. We'll have at least two central defenders and he'll either move Butcher to the "destroyer" role Ketts also favours, ask Slattery to do it, retain Dean to do it or go to the market to get one. As for the other 5 outfield players then we shall see. A left sided defender (and cover ideally) like every window since time began will be high up the shopping list. It will be interesting to see how many out the remaining 4 are in the building at present.

I'd also be surprised if he hasn't got an eye on Queen's Park and Shields performances there and wonder if he can develop a pairing with KvV, certainly the cost effective option and Shields does get a reset button with a gaffer who looks at strengths opposed to getting his crowbar out.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Kapowzer

[capt_oats]

3 hours ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

Given the (hopefully!) accepted wisdom that they can't play in the same midfield together I reckon Goss is probably dependent on what happens with Slattery. You'd imagine that Slattery's profile- England youth international, Southampton academy- we signed him on this 3 year deal problem expecting to sell him for money this coming summer. 

I could still maybe see us getting a fee for him but it'd very much be a "nominal" one rather than anything significant. I suppose it depends on how much either of them like being here but I reckon Goss will be away like you say and we'll have another inconsistent season from Slattery before he ends up at Crawley or someone next year.

Agree with that about Slattery in so much as our pitch to him would presumably have been that we'd "give him a platform" so we/he would probably be expecting him to be open to a move around now.

Tbh, he's not going to make us rich but I could easily see him moving to a top end EFL 1 side eg: Plymouth, Ipswich, Barnsley, Bolton, Peterboro or a lower end Championship team eg: Wigan, Blackpool, Huddersfield, Rotherham.

Casual homophobia and general arsehole-ishness aside I like Slattery and as others have said, it feels like he probably has a relatively high ceiling. He's certainly a better player than he's shown (or has had the opportunity to show) this season.

We've already seen the difference in Spittal now he's being used in a way that suits his game and I don't think it's a stretch to say that we'd get more from Slattery in a midfield with a better mix and balance than being relentlessly used in a dysfunctional pair in a shape that doesn't work.

Edited March 22, 2023 by capt_oats

[Archie McSquackle]

5 hours ago, Kapowzer said:

I mean Aberdeen can't be as mediocre yet again surely?

We say that pretty much every season but they somehow manage it time and time again. 

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

I think that building a squad with a view to playing 3-5-2 is quite tough. Firstly, not only do you need two good wing backs, you also need adequate cover. I think Robinson was very fortunate that Tait was as capable on either side. Secondly, it probably puts a fair amount of your eggs in one basket. Robinson found that again when the system got found out and Elliott Frear was the only option to change it up (obviously in January Gboly and Hastie's purple patch helped navigate that).

I think this season we have ended up with a 3-5-2 fitting squad by accident, due to Grezza and SOD's standoff. The fact that McGinn can fill two slots in there and he won't break the bank pushes me towards another year for him, even if I'm less than enthused with his part in the second Rangers goal on Saturday. If we are fortunate to reach a point where we are arithmetically (or at least practically) safe, I'd bump Max for SOD. As much as SOD's career with us so far hasn't gone as well as anyone would like, he's never had a run at wing back before and he's proven to do a job there in bigger matches than he'll ever play for us. That would make us see if keeping him next season is a goer. 

[ATLIS]

7 hours ago, capt_oats said:

Swapping out SOD for Devlin sounds like a fairly sensible move.

On the point of Livi out of contract Livi players see if we could replace Goss with someone like Omeonga, I'd be fine with that.

With Goss it kind of feels like he's got what he wants from his time at Motherwell. He's played regularly, it's not been a disaster without him having been consistently good and he's got an international call up. Well done everyone.

I'd say he's probably at a point similar to the group who left at the end of 18/19 (McHugh, Ally Gorrin, Main etc).

Also agree with @thisGRAEME about keeping McGinn around.

Devlin makes a lot of sense for Motherwell imo. He's probably on about £1.1k p/w with us and that likely makes him our top earner or thereabouts. He's not long had a baby with his Mrs as well so I'd imagine he's looking to secure himself financially in the last few deals of his career. Only way I see us keeping him is if we get Europe and push the boat out. He's been largely inconsistent this season but he's always at least a solid 6/10 never on a shocker. 

Omeonga though, probably isn't of the quality that you'd be looking for. I don't think he's much of an improvement on what you've got He's only really been a rotation option for us, he had a wee purple patch in the first 5 months but never really built on it. The only upside is that he only took something like £750 p/w with us. He was on £14k p/w at Pescara and I think came to us looking to get a move to further his career but it never materialised. Not a clue what wage he'd be looking for as well, he might turn around and ask for something like £3-4k p/w but I don't reckon anyone touches him at that. 

I wonder if someone like Shinnie would work out at Motherwell though, he never really got to play his preferred position with us and got shoehorned in at CM (sometimes up front)  rather than CAM and he never really got to display his quality. 

Edited March 22, 2023 by ATLIS

[Kapowzer]

15 minutes ago, ATLIS said:

I wonder if someone like Shinnie would work out at Motherwell though, he never really got to play his preferred position with us and got shoehorned in at CM (sometimes up front)  rather than CAM and he never really got to display his quality. 

£14k a week. Wow ..... madness.

 

Every second player in our squad seems to be a CAM at present, or can do a job (ish) in that role.

Tierney, Danzaki, Spittal, Crankshaw, McKinstry, Goss has it on his CV but no chance I'd want him there ...... even Morris has it on his transfermarkt heat map.

4 of those are on the books for 2023-24.

Shopping list for me in order would be:

1./ Left back/wingback

2./ Secure Casey

3./ Centre half/Central midfielder to facilitate where Butcher is played

4./ Right back/wingback (merit to Joe's suggestion with SOD in last 8 games)

5./ Secure Obika or see how Shields does in preseason

6./ Another midfielder (box to box, worker, like wee Al)

7./ See if fringe players, O.O.C can respond positively to new coaching (Mandron, Dean, Efford, Aitchison, Morris), Efford had a purple patch before injury and Mandron scored a brace on his debut (against a poor Arbroath) not to be seen since.

8./ Give Maguire one last roll of the dice but he's tried under 3 managers now without being able to step up. I only say that because he has all the physical attributes.

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

I think one of Kettlewell's biggest tasks next season will be shifting players who are under contract.

Only five players (Kelly, Butcher, Slattery, Spittal, Van Veen) who are contracted have started under him so far.

That means that for one reason or another Oxborough, Lamie, Mugabi, Maguire, Danzaki, McGinley, Blaney, Morris, Tierney and Shields currently aren't getting in our team and for many of them, I'm not convinced that'll change next season. I know there are caveats like potential and the fact we obviously need a sub keeper, but I imagine he'll be looking to move a good few of them on. I'd like to see how Blaney's potential develops, but if they're not getting in our XI at the moment, do we really need Mugabi AND Lamie next season?

 

[capt_oats]

19 minutes ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

I think one of Kettlewell's biggest tasks next season will be shifting players who are under contract.

Only five players (Kelly, Butcher, Slattery, Spittal, Van Veen) who are contracted have started under him so far.

That means that for one reason or another Oxborough, Lamie, Mugabi, Maguire, Danzaki, McGinley, Blaney, Morris, Tierney and Shields currently aren't getting in our team and for many of them, I'm not convinced that'll change next season. I know there are caveats like potential and the fact we obviously need a sub keeper, but I imagine he'll be looking to move a good few of them on. I'd like to see how Blaney's potential develops, but if they're not getting in our XI at the moment, do we really need Mugabi AND Lamie next season?

I thought it was interesting that we used Blaney as a sub ahead of Lamie at the weekend while Lamie was unused. I mean, it could have been as simple as giving him a run out given, for better or worse, the Bathgate Maldini is a known quantity and came off the bench against County but still...

Going back to Lamie's whole PCA situation, it was implied at the time that his nose had been put out of joint at us having signed other centre backs and that he wasn't thought of as a first pick:

Quote

“On top of that, I’d started this season really well and then we brought a few other players in who play in my position.

“Now, though, I’ve fought my way back into the starting XI, I’m a mainstay again and the manager’s told me it’ll stay that way as long as I’m working hard.

“So it’ll be like that until the end of the season and then we’ll see what happens."

I think that's kind of a tough circle to square - especially given the form of Butcher and Casey since Kettlewell has taken over with Blaney waiting in the wings but Lamie having been made vice-captain at the start of the season.

[Kapowzer]

36 minutes ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

do we really need Mugabi AND Lamie next season?

You do need 4 core central defenders as we've found this season. If Butcher isn't one of them you know he can drop back and be a more an adequate cover. Blaney, Casey and one other if Butcher is retained at centre half. I'd look for 2 if Butcher is seen as key to SK's midfield. I wonder if Casey sees the SPFL as a key to his development, that may be the rub. Sacramento is a nice part of the world.

[YassinMoutaouakil]

I'll be sad to see Bevis go. He's probably not any less pish than Lamie but seems like a nice guy. No beef with Lamie like.

[Gianfranco]

Lamie and Bevis will always be remembered for being hilariously bad during Robinson’s implosion in the covid season. 

[capt_oats]

11 hours ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

I think one of Kettlewell's biggest tasks next season will be shifting players who are under contract.

Only five players (Kelly, Butcher, Slattery, Spittal, Van Veen) who are contracted have started under him so far.

That means that for one reason or another Oxborough, Lamie, Mugabi, Maguire, Danzaki, McGinley, Blaney, Morris, Tierney and Shields currently aren't getting in our team and for many of them, I'm not convinced that'll change next season. I know there are caveats like potential and the fact we obviously need a sub keeper, but I imagine he'll be looking to move a good few of them on. I'd like to see how Blaney's potential develops, but if they're not getting in our XI at the moment, do we really need Mugabi AND Lamie next season?

I suppose it's worth caveating that of those mentioned the majority only have 1 year left after this season.

Expiries:
2024 - Oxborough, Lamie, Mugabi, Maguire, McGinley, Morris, Shields
2025 - Danzaki, Blaney, Tierney

I say this having clearly never been involved in a fitba' transfer but I'd imagine that having a year left probably allows for a bit more flexibility in an exit in so much as a season loan effectively does the job without settling the contract (assuming the loan club picks up a chunk of the wage).

I could be wrong but other than maybe Mugabi I don't think we'd be expecting to recoup fees for any of the 2024 expiries while 2 of the 2025 ones are just in the door and Tierney is still only 22 so I wouldn't be writing him off given he's clearly shown potential.

It's more a question of whether there's a likelihood of finding a club for the others to land.

With Maguire and Shields out on loan at the moment you'd think that SK would want to give them a crack out of fairness but you could imagine both being of interest to clubs at the level they're currently playing.

I don't think it's out of the question that some EFL 1 or 2 mob might take a punt on Bevis - he's 28 in May so arguably should be hitting his peak years as a centre back but someone like Lamie feels like he'd be a bit more awkward and I don't imagine he'd be keen on dropping down a level up here. The disappearance of McGinley and Morris this season leaves it as anyone's guess what happens there.

By the by, I noticed that Maguire hasn't in the squad for Dundee's squad for their last 3 games - he was subbed off after 65' in the 3-1 loss to Thistle. I take it that's an injury? From lurking about on the Dundee forum I got the impression that they'd not exactly been convinced by him.

Edited March 23, 2023 by capt_oats

[Swello]

1 hour ago, capt_oats said:

The disappearance of McGinley and Morris

The unremarked disappearance of Morris is one of the weirdest things I can remember - not mentioned as being injured and not mutual'd in January when that would have seemed to be the sensible thing for everyone. If he decides to hang about as he's got a contract that he might not get elsewhere, it's odd that he's not even made a bench in months. (usual disclaimer that I obviously hope there are no non-football reasons for it).

['WellDel]

As far as central defence goes, I'd like to see us safe asap then priority number one would be to try and get Dan the man tied down, followed by giving Blaney a run of games to gauge his worth. Lamie and Mugabi are well known quantities (i.e. pretty shite) so there's nothing new to learn there, and if Blaney looks as though he can grow into a regular starter, then trying to offload those two early would save a fair chunk of wages and be a priority.

Bev is no doubt a cracking lad and positive character to have around the place , it's just his lack of footballing ability that let's him down and, as discussed multiple times, Lamie walking back on his PCA with Dundee and convicing Grezza to offer him a better deal, make him a regular starter and appoint him vice captain was one of the greatest cons ever pulled. Some say he'd not fancy dropping down a division but if he wants to be a first pick he really needs to be honest with himself and realise that's his true level.

Kettlewell strikes me as a good man manager, but he's obviously meticulous and driven to succeed, so I think he'll also have a ruthless side in manipulating moves and changes to the squad to shape it as he wishes, so I can definitely see a couple who are still under contract being moved on one way or another to free up space to bring his own men in.

[thisGRAEME]

3 hours ago, Swello said:

The unremarked disappearance of Morris is one of the weirdest things I can remember - not mentioned as being injured and not mutual'd in January when that would have seemed to be the sensible thing for everyone. If he decides to hang about as he's got a contract that he might not get elsewhere, it's odd that he's not even made a bench in months. (usual disclaimer that I obviously hope there are no non-football reasons for it).

Tbf to him, I wouldn't take the Mutual-ing either. I'd assume he's been given a decent weekly wedge, and any kind of agreement would involve a question of giving some of that up.

I wouldn't, like. If you're 18-21, maybe, if you're 30+, absolutely not.

[one m in Motherwell]

It'll be interesting to see if there is much of a change in approach if/when we are safe,  if Ketts is minded to get more of a look at the wider squad by tweaking things a bit.  Given how he came to the job I wonder if he's had much scope to do that over and above our number one mission of staying up.

The likes of Danzaki and Tierney, and even McKinstry will perhaps get a bit more exposure, the problem is that they all pretty much play the same position.

As ever, shaping up to be an interesting summer...

[capt_oats]

3 hours ago, Swello said:

The unremarked disappearance of Morris is one of the weirdest things I can remember - not mentioned as being injured and not mutual'd in January when that would have seemed to be the sensible thing for everyone. If he decides to hang about as he's got a contract that he might not get elsewhere, it's odd that he's not even made a bench in months. (usual disclaimer that I obviously hope there are no non-football reasons for it).

Aye.

I totally get that players (indeed people) have a right to privacy and that's absolutely fine. I'm certainly not sitting here demanding updates but the general vibe from the fact that he's just kind of disappeared seems odd.

It just seems like a fairly shite state of affairs all round (in so much as a footballer landing on a 2 year contract can be a shite state of affairs).

He cancelled his contract with Salford, came up here on the basis that he was getting to work with a manager who had got the best out of him (say what you like about Morris but his numbers under Alexander were exceptional - 42 goals and 31 assists in 160 games).

He arrives on 11th July and Alexander is emptied on the 29th. He made 10 appearances (356 minutes) under Hammell before disappearing into the ether.

As @thisGRAEME says, I wouldn't take the mutual'ing either for exactly the same reasons but even a loan to the end of the season might have been something to at least play games.

I know it was touched on at the AGM re: us going Secret Squirrel on injuries and absences but it's been really amplified with Alexander shutting down the (knee) page on the official. The radio silence feels like it definitely increased post-Robinson.

That said, I noticed @PauloPerth commenting in the St Johnstone thread about Saints not communicating injuries and absences.

Who knows maybe the fact that Davidson and Alexander are BFFs means they've a similar approach to that sort of stuff. Indeed from taking a swatch at their thread in general it seems like Davidson and Grezza have pretty similar outlooks when it come to fitba in general as a lot of Saints fans complaints about Davidson echo what was grinding folks gears when Alexander was here.

Edited March 23, 2023 by capt_oats

[thisGRAEME]

3 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

I know it was touched on at the AGM re: us going Secret Squirrel on injuries and absences but it's been really amplified with Alexander shutting down the (knee) page on the official. The radio silence feels like it definitely increased post-Robinson.

Don't actually have a problem with this either tbh. The (knee) was a lot of shite anyway, and while the theory behind it is fine, as soon as you're not playing well or you're not having a great time it's another stick to beat folk with so why bother?

[Busta Nut]

3 hours ago, Swello said:

 

 

32 minutes ago, thisGRAEME said:

 

 

12 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

 

The pub rumours is Morris is on a very decent wage and has no interest in cutting it. Very Winston Bogarde-esque