Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[well fan for life]

21 hours ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

 

We're due a win, by the law of averages. 

They've got the better squad on paper but, of course, football's not played on paper.

[Kapowzer]

9 hours ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

Clichés aside

What clichés ......

[eliphas]

9 hours ago, Kapowzer said:

Has any presser advised how long Blaney has left on the sidelines? He'd probably be drip fed back in anyway due to the nature of his injury. Just really want to see what Butcher can do in his preferred position. Suspect Kettlewell will be loathe to change the 10 points from a possible 12 formula.

Yeah, I don't think he will change it much to be honest and I'd probably do the same.  That said, we have seen Butcher pushed into midfield a couple of times mid game now and I also wouldn't be surprised to see him in there in a couple of weeks v Rangers to firm it up a bit.

If I was betting, I reckon we will see Lamie in before Blaney this season. 

[capt_oats]

I wouldn't be moving Butcher anywhere anytime soon tbh.

We've 2 clean sheets in our last 4 games. For context, we hadn't managed a clean sheet in 11 league games prior to Kettlewell pivoting to the back 3.

Right now Butcher feels ideally suited to the role in the middle of the back 3 organising in the same way Hartley was when he first arrived - I'm not sure we've another defender who offers the same.

@Swello's post in the United thread re: the value of good business in the January window vs the manager kind of speaks to a discussion I noticed when I dipped into SO the other day.

This is the post for context:

On 04/03/2023 at 17:17, Great Balls of Shire said:

Hammel brought them in tbf , think hammel is a victim of timing but it wasn't meant to be and SK is benefitting , credit to him , he's getting a tune out of guys who wouldn't do it for hammel 

I mean, I disagree that Hammell was the victim of anything other than having been promoted into a role in which he was out of his depth but it's factually true that the players Kettlewell has been getting a tune from have included Hammell's January signings (Butcher, Casey, Furlong, Obika plus the recalled Max Johnston - that's half a team).

I'm not sure if the intended implication of that post is that Hammell might have fared better had he been given the opportunity to work with them but given his final game had the same players available but in the same shape he'd been failing with along with McGinn at left back, Spittal as the #6 and KVV on the left wing I'd respectfully argue...probably not.

Either way, the fact that half of our January signings have made an initial impact on the first team and Kettlewell has quickly found a shape that for the most part suits the players he has available, (McKinstry and Crankshaw have both been unlucky in that respect), is a positive. Especially given where we were at 11pm on Deadline Day.

Edited March 6, 2023 by capt_oats

[Gallus Numpty]

1 hour ago, capt_oats said:

I mean, I disagree that Hammell was the victim of anything other than having been promoted into a role in which he was out of his depth but it's factually true that the players Kettlewell has been getting a tune from have included Hammell's January signings (Butcher, Casey, Furlong, Obika plus the recalled Max Johnston - that's half a team).

Hadn't really thought about it before, but there are certainly some Gannoneque vibes to Stevie's time in charge. Appointed too late to do any pre-season, brought in some decent enough players but couldn't manage them, sacked six months later.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Gallus Numpty

[RostokMcSpoons]

A philosophical question... 

Kettlewell has come in, and as has been backed up by the players' comments, he's simplified things.  He's laid out all the simple stuff the players need to do, and they've gone and done it, and we're picking up points we wouldn't have before.
Hammy managed to do something of the sort I think in his first few games.

Is that all there is to a "new manager bounce"?  Jettison all the complicated shizzle from the previous manager that's clouded the players' minds, to concentrate on that simple stuff.

So is the end of that new manager bounce the point when the manager, or the players, get bored of doing 'simple things well' and try to get a bit more fancy with tactics?

I mean, players don't tend to be rocket surgeons in their spare time, it sees from the outside that few of them excel when asked to go beyond the simple stuff.  But they'll need their training to be fresh and interesting or that'll go right off the boil.
Meanwhile, the managers must hanker to be seen as some sort of 'tactical genius' who can do some clever shit that separates them from the herd.  There must be a temptation to go beyond 'basics' in the hunt for some footballing nirvana.

Is there any validity to that view, or am I a mile off?

[dezz]

10 points from 12 and back on top of the real league table. Everything’s coming up Millhouse!

 

['WellDel]

21 minutes ago, dezz said:

10 points from 12 and back on top of the real league table. Everything’s coming up Millhouse!

 

Butcher will be a real asset in midfield once we have more bodies back fit, but I'd be loathe to move him or disrupt what we currently have before we rack up a few more points. The no nonsense approach from him and Casey has obviously been pivotal in the upturn in form and reduction in comedy goals conceded, and continuing with that pairing should hopefully see us pick up enough points off those around us to stay safe, and make us at least competitive in the games against the teams at the top.

Pushing us back to the top of the b*****ds table in the process is a nice wee added bonus.

[Gallus Numpty]

39 minutes ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

Is there any validity to that view, or am I a mile off?

I'd say the bounce is mainly just the result of doing something different, so you're probably right in some cases. That different thing might be simplifying tactics, or new training drills, or just the way the new manager talks to them.

I'm sure it does sometimes wear off when the new manager just tries to be too clever, too. But can also be when he keeps doing the same thing, other teams suss it out how to counter it, and there's no plan B. You can also just get unlucky with injuries and suspensions, which can affect results, which affects morale, and so on...

Edited March 6, 2023 by Gallus Numpty

[Handsome_Devil]

37 minutes ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

A philosophical question... 

Kettlewell has come in, and as has been backed up by the players' comments, he's simplified things.  He's laid out all the simple stuff the players need to do, and they've gone and done it, and we're picking up points we wouldn't have before.
Hammy managed to do something of the sort I think in his first few games.

Is that all there is to a "new manager bounce"?  Jettison all the complicated shizzle from the previous manager that's clouded the players' minds, to concentrate on that simple stuff.

So is the end of that new manager bounce the point when the manager, or the players, get bored of doing 'simple things well' and try to get a bit more fancy with tactics?

I mean, players don't tend to be rocket surgeons in their spare time, it sees from the outside that few of them excel when asked to go beyond the simple stuff.  But they'll need their training to be fresh and interesting or that'll go right off the boil.
Meanwhile, the managers must hanker to be seen as some sort of 'tactical genius' who can do some clever shit that separates them from the herd.  There must be a temptation to go beyond 'basics' in the hunt for some footballing nirvana.

Is there any validity to that view, or am I a mile off?

I think that's pretty much it.

To play football in a 4-3-3 you need at least one CB who can pass, good full backs, two functioning wingers (who do tonnes on and off the ball) and a lone striker worthy of the name.

To play our 3-5-2, you need two functioning wing backs but the rest can kind of muddle through...and if you have KVV in form that's obviously a bonus.

Essentially in the latter shape there's much less complication and much less that can go wrong which with players at our level is always massively skewed to the risk side of risk-reward.

SK obviously does the simple stuff and the players, happy with a fresh start, run a yard harder and we win.

The massive challenge is developing that from here because when the extra yard goes you're basically back to Alexanderball or trying to play in a nicer way which is fine until you meet and get beat by the richer teams or peers in the 'nothing stupid, shell it' phase.

It's probably why managers at our level last about 18 months, very few of them are willing to regress when needed (Robinson was a notable exception).

[Swello]

I always think a lot of new manager bounce in our league is just the "doing something different thing" in the context of playing a small number of teams very regularly. That lasts about 1 round of games (if that) as everyone else gets to analyse it to death.

[capt_oats]

fucksake Grezza.

[Kapowzer]

1 hour ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

Is there any validity to that view, or am I a mile off?

They say someone's best round of golf the first of the year (usually in spring in this country) when you just go out and play. The rest of the season is constant tweaking and tinkering, moving a knuckle a 1/2" round, changing tempo,doing something with your elbow on the downswing. All these are usually followed by the inevitable sclaf or hook into the drink. I think there's a degree of merit to what you say.

I remember being told a story about Marvin Johnson. He was getting overloaded with instructions from Baraclough and wasn't the brightest to boot. McGhee's instructions to him you could write on the bag of a fag packet with a sharpie.

Out the 4 games you could argue we've only had the upper hand on balance against Hearts surprisingly. Big swathes of County and Killie we were chasing the game. The difference I can see we cut out all the stupidity and soft shit. While luck is a thing too, lost to be said about the more you put in, the luckier you get.

Reading between the lines of everything said leading up to and after Hammy's P45 is players had no idea of the plan and instructions were muddled. With such a small league you have to do something different each round of fixtures because predictability will be your undoing often. Oh and have plan B and C. It never felt like we had those under Hammy.

38 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

fucksake Grezza.

"Kevin van Veen (..... who's been there two years)"

Grezza is some boi

Edited March 6, 2023 by Kapowzer

[thisGRAEME]

Playing players in the position they're meant to play in, and asking guys to do things they're good at, rather than asking players to play in positions that are unfamiliar in and to do things that they're not good at is simple management. 

We were all in agreement that we didn't have bad players, we had good players being managed badly, which as it turns out is absolutely true.

Yes, the addition of Casey and Butcher has also played a significant part of this, because as much as anything else, Sol and Lamie's confidence was absolutely shot to bits from consistently playing six players in front of them who do not offer the protection they needed. But they've also quite clearly been asked to just leather balls away should it become in any way dangerous. Win tackles, clear balls, first and foremost. 

I realise this is an idiot football fan thing to say, but I'm really not sure it's that hard, or any different to being a good manager in any other job. Know your staff, give them support where they need it, give them a leathering if they need it, give them, fundamentally, what they need to perform. Does Kev need a bit of freedom, in order to gain the best out of him? Probably, but the reward is worth it. Does three safety first central defenders highlight the strengths and hide the deficiencies more than a back 4 does? Yeah. Is it harming us in a possession sense, almost certainly, but again, the reward is worth it.

[Handsome_Devil]

1 hour ago, thisGRAEME said:

We were all in agreement that we didn't have bad players, we had good players being managed badly, which as it turns out is absolutely true.

That's not 100% how I remember it TBF...shite players managed badly was also a popular view!

[RostokMcSpoons]

1 hour ago, thisGRAEME said:

We were all in agreement that we didn't have bad players, we had good players being managed badly, which as it turns out is absolutely true.

I think that's a bit revisionist, to be honest, there seemed to be quite a lot of support for launching 95% of the team into the sea at the first opportunity.

It's good that opinion has changed, because :checks law books: that would have been illegal, and we'd likely not been able to field the minimum number of players at kick-off.

[rowsdower]

After seeing the little darts promo vid from the club just there, with Kelly barely missing KVV with a dart, added his previous recklessness of trying to throw Blair Spittall off of a mountain, I think I know where our injuries are coming from

[YassinMoutaouakil]

I got the feeling Hammell's Plan B was to do Plan A but worse.

[thisGRAEME]

2 hours ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

I think that's a bit revisionist, to be honest, there seemed to be quite a lot of support for launching 95% of the team into the sea at the first opportunity.

It's good that opinion has changed, because :checks law books: that would have been illegal, and we'd likely not been able to field the minimum number of players at kick-off.

I think you might be right, but fundamentally, Kelly, McGinn, Slattery, Van Veen, Spittal, McKinstry and others have all shown at various points they're very much players of this level, so aye.

I reserve the right to still seek to send some to the sea, tbf.

[Kapowzer]

2 hours ago, Handsome_Devil said:

That's not 100% how I remember it TBF...shite players managed badly was also a popular view!

Ha yeah, our only player of the season contender for the first half was Penney, a defender which says a lot, who wasn't ours, who negotiated a season long loan to January and joined us before a few days before GW5.