Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[eliphas]

Seats for Lamie, SOD and McGinn on the bus too hopefully. 

Kelly looks devoid of confidence to me now. Wonder how much a revolving defence and change of goalie coach hasnt helped. Seems to have impacted the Kelly we had last season for sure.

[capt_oats]

12 hours ago, dezz said:

Haven’t read through the last few pages (cos I’m about 9 pints deep), but quality-wise I genuinely think this isn’t anywhere near the worst Motherwell starting XI I’ve seen in my 25 years of going to games. 
Everything else though, f**k me! No depth, no bottle, no character. It’s got all the hallmarks of a ‘they’ll figure it out soon enough’ team, that ultimately go down with a whimper. I’d snap your hand off for 11th right now and take our chance in the playoffs. 
Unless we a #6 and at least 2, preferably 3, starting quality attackers in Jan, we’re gubbed. 

Aye.

This is nowhere near the worst Motherwell side but unless someone actually takes some sort of ownership of things then we're fucked. As it stands Hammell's had 18 league games in charge and his record is marginally better than the Jan - May 22 run that saw folk lose their minds over Alexander.

GA (Jan 22 - May 22) = P 18 W 3 D 6 L 9 Pts = 15

SH = P 18 W 5 D 3 L 10 Pts = 18

There are obviously mitigating circumstances with Hammell in so much as he was parachuted in 2 days before the season started, has a paper thin squad and we've a laundry list of injuries which have now apparently been compounded by illness.

That's...fine but the January window opens at the weekend so it's on Hammell/the club to do something about it. Even if it's short term fixes the window is open and the issues around the squad have been known for ages.

Without wanting to come wide have we actually seen any individual improvement in players under Hammell/Kerr in the same way we saw with say Cole, Watt or even Lamie's redemption arc under Alexander.

For avoidance of doubt that's not me arguing for GA, we were well shot in the end and his position was untenable but it does beg the question of what the f**k we're actually doing just now.

As @thisGRAEME said last night whether or not they were actually worth extending or not we lost the likes of O'Hara, Donnelly, Woolery, Roberts etc over the summer and simply didn't replace them. Quite possibly through choice because we wanted to reduce the size of the squad.

We've a centre forward who's on 11 goals in 22 games this season which is good but he's literally our only option for that position. We're asking players to play through injury and illness regularly. I mean, that was true with KVV last season as well when we were asking him to play with one functioning arm.

Incidentally this is a good point from Nick McPheat:

When we hit a slide with Robinson there was a general feeling that he was prepared to blow things up and make changes whether that was bringing Hastie back from Alloa, getting Gboly in and going 433 instead of Murderball or whatever.

Right now I don't get the same impression from Hammell. Like, clearly I've no idea what he's like in the dressing room or generally but his post-match script of doing good work in training and we need to defend better started getting old a while ago. I noticed he's modified the line to getting players in "as quickly as possible" now. So that's something.

Like others I don't think it's a given that we're down and a routine 3-0 at Ibrox doesn't tell us anything we didn't already know. It's definitely fixable but it absolutely needs someone to actually acknowledge the fucking problems and do something about them.

I mean, if we've spend the entire season up to now talking about not being "clinical" enough in the defensive third and our solution ends up as signing a boy from the LOI because he scored a worldie of a free kick against us in July then...f**k me.

Edited December 29, 2022 by capt_oats

[Handsome_Devil]

9 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

Without wanting to come wide have we actually seen any individual improvement in players under Hammell/Kerr in the same way we saw with say Cole, Watt or even Lamie's redemption arc under Alexander.

For avoidance of doubt that's not me arguing for GA, we were well shot in the end and his position was untenable but it does beg the question of what the f**k we're actually doing just now.

Goss improved a lot, at least at first, but has tailed off.

Kelly, Lamie and Mugabi are visibly worse.

Rest are much the same.

Far from decisive as you say but not a great look either.

[thisGRAEME]

28 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

That's...fine but the January window opens at the weekend so it's on Hammell/the club to do something about it. Even if it's short term fixes the window is open and the issues around the squad have been known for ages.

This is it, ultimately. We simply cannot be sitting scrabbling around at the end of January texting guys that used to play with us offering them a game like a badly organised five a side game. We need players and it has to be as soon as possible.

We need a CB, a #6 and a wide player in the Roberts/Woolery/Humphrey, christ even the Hylton mould, minimum, I'd say.

Ideally a striker in addition, not an "across the front 3" a striker, Cole Stockton or something. 

I'm not expecting a Baraclough supermarket sweep, but we simply cannot continue as is. Even with the injured players back, we're looking to teenagers to come in and do something and it isn't fair on any of them.

[Pepper]

1 hour ago, Busta Nut said:

Hey guys, I 'm just passing by on my "Liam Kelly is utter dugshite" bus.
Plenty of seats still. Hop on.

Has his form tailed off cause of the utter dross that plays in front of him? Most definitely yes.

Describing him as dugshit is just stupid 

[Handsome_Devil]

40 minutes ago, Pepper said:

Has his form tailed off cause of the utter dross that plays in front of him? Most definitely yes.

Describing him as dugshit is just stupid 

Dugshite is extreme but I don't think our form offers him much cover. We're not so shite we concede 15 shots a game so his errors creep up that way, there's simply more stuff going in now he'd have saved before.

[Allroy for Prez]

Folk say this isn’t the worst Motherwell team they’ve seen, so which was worse? Which one only won 8 out of 37 games in a calendar year?

The lockdown season was rotten but that team had Watt, Cole and Campbell in it.

The year Robinson came in and saved us had McDonald, Mount, Ainsworth, Lasley and Hammell in it. 
 

It’s all about opinions, it doesn’t really matter, but I reckon it could be the worst. Certainly one of the softest and ineffective ones. 

['WellDel]

1 hour ago, thisGRAEME said:

This is it, ultimately. We simply cannot be sitting scrabbling around at the end of January texting guys that used to play with us offering them a game like a badly organised five a side game. We need players and it has to be as soon as possible.

Aye, you'd think that having had from the start of the World Cup break to concentrate on recruitment, and with the deficiencies in the squad glaringly obvious, that some deals should be advanced to the stage of being formalities once the window opens. A starting C/B and first 11 ready striker being the most urgent requirements. 

39 minutes ago, Pepper said:

Has his form tailed off cause of the utter dross that plays in front of him? Most definitely yes.

Describing him as dugshit is just stupid 

His form has gone off a cliff since his opening day heroics in Paisley, though. If that continues into the new year then the minimum I'd be giving Oxborough is a stab at the Arbroath game to see what he's about. A cup run would be great, but I'd value staying in the division more. Captain or not, Kelly shouldn't be undroppable. We all know he's here to try and use us as a stepping stone back to a higher level after things not working out for him at QPR. That's not overly likely on current form, so knowing there's competition and he's not simply an automatic starter might help motivate and push him back to where he needs to be. He's been as culpable as many others in this horrific run.

[eliphas]

Jonathan Leko, winger, from Birmingham on loan being discussed. English youth international up to U20. 23 played about 120 league games mostly in the championship.

[capt_oats]

1 minute ago, eliphas said:

Jonathan Leko, winger, from Birmingham on loan being discussed. English youth international up to U20. 23 played about 120 league games mostly in the championship.

Tis the season...

[Handsome_Devil]

35 minutes ago, Allroy for Prez said:

Folk say this isn’t the worst Motherwell team they’ve seen, so which was worse? Which one only won 8 out of 37 games in a calendar year?

The lockdown season was rotten but that team had Watt, Cole and Campbell in it.

The year Robinson came in and saved us had McDonald, Mount, Ainsworth, Lasley and Hammell in it. 
 

It’s all about opinions, it doesn’t really matter, but I reckon it could be the worst. Certainly one of the softest and ineffective ones. 

2002/3 was worse...we obviously had a few highlights but that team frequently wasn't remotely competitive over 90 mins never mind a season.

2006/7 under Malpas - at least from February on when we were safe and downed tools - was worse.

The calendar year 1992 was absolutely awful and if we had a redeeming feature from August 1996-May 1998 I can't mind it off the top of my head.

14/15 was arguably just as bad as well.

It's obviously just a fun (!) game to consider but it's worth noting all those teams had at least a few players who had been/turned out to be good too.

Where I definitely agree - and this is what concerns me, like the majority of others I think, most - is that all those sides while playing shite had at least one player you would back with some heart, fight, passion etc who would take responsibility, dump the rest on their shoulders and drag us over the line.

This team, despite a few ok footballers, most definitely does not. Sign them (the much vaunted core of a new CB, 6, CF) and we could still survive but everyone else will be looking for them too and there are ominous signs this is indeed 'the year' - even ignoring the mind-boggling decision to replicate a relegation kit!

Edit to add: I just looked up how truly awful 1992 actually was - seven league wins all year, 1 league win in 10 to end 1991/2, 1 league win in the 10 to start 92/3. And those squads were including Cooper, POD, Arnott, McCart, Philliben, Martin, Dykstra, McKinnon...there was a 0-3 loss at home to Airdrie, which I've forgotten, and a 0-2 in the previous derby at Broomfield which sadly I haven't, it was one of the (many!) worst-evers.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Handsome_Devil
stats

[Marinello]

Just putting it out there, but with him barely starting for Utd I wonder if a wee enquiry about Tony Watt would be worthwhile???

[Pepper]

59 minutes ago, 'WellDel said:

His form has gone off a cliff since his opening day heroics in Paisley, though. If that continues into the new year then the minimum I'd be giving Oxborough is a stab at the Arbroath game to see what he's about. A cup run would be great, but I'd value staying in the division more. Captain or not, Kelly shouldn't be undroppable. We all know he's here to try and use us as a stepping stone back to a higher level after things not working out for him at QPR. That's not overly likely on current form, so knowing there's competition and he's not simply an automatic starter might help motivate and push him back to where he needs to be. He's been as culpable as many others in this horrific run.

Has it though? I agree his form has dipped as has everyone's but I don't see him dropping any clangers or not making many saves that he should have. 

The guy gets zero protection in front of him. 

[Allroy for Prez]

1 hour ago, Handsome_Devil said:

2002/3 was worse...we obviously had a few highlights but that team frequently wasn't remotely competitive over 90 mins never mind a season.

2006/7 under Malpas - at least from February on when we were safe and downed tools - was worse.

The calendar year 1992 was absolutely awful and if we had a redeeming feature from August 1996-May 1998 I can't mind it off the top of my head.

14/15 was arguably just as bad as well.

It's obviously just a fun (!) game to consider but it's worth noting all those teams had at least a few players who had been/turned out to be good too.

Where I definitely agree - and this is what concerns me, like the majority of others I think, most - is that all those sides while playing shite had at least one player you would back with some heart, fight, passion etc who would take responsibility, dump the rest on their shoulders and drag us over the line.

This team, despite a few ok footballers, most definitely does not. Sign them (the much vaunted core of a new CB, 6, CF) and we could still survive but everyone else will be looking for them too and there are ominous signs this is indeed 'the year' - even ignoring the mind-boggling decision to replicate a relegation kit!

Edit to add: I just looked up how truly awful 1992 actually was - seven league wins all year, 1 league win in 10 to end 1991/2, 1 league win in the 10 to start 92/3. And those squads were including Cooper, POD, Arnott, McCart, Philliben, Martin, Dykstra, McKinnon...there was a 0-3 loss at home to Airdrie, which I've forgotten, and a 0-2 in the previous derby at Broomfield which sadly I haven't, it was one of the (many!) worst-evers.

Good post. I remember all those seasons unfortunately.

[wellboy1991]

3 hours ago, Busta Nut said:

Hey guys, I 'm just passing by on my "Liam Kelly is utter dugshite" bus.
Plenty of seats still. Hop on.

I still can’t believe folk hold him in the same regard as Ruddy, Randolph, Carson or Gillespie. All four are far superior keepers.

Been saying this for some time, never got the hype with Kelly at all.

[Swello]

2 hours ago, Allroy for Prez said:

Folk say this isn’t the worst Motherwell team they’ve seen, so which was worse?

There have been plenty of Motherwell teams who have had a shite half season, which was promptly forgotten about when we made signings (or played all the good young players as Robinson did with a honking bottom 6 team) and improved. There have also been teams that started like a rocket and were utter pish for the 2nd half of the season when already well clear of relegation. There haven't been many teams that were this bad but for a whole season, hence the whole 4 decades in the top flight thing...

If we continue as we are doing, then we are heading for the bottom 2 places no question and that would put them in with Butcher's team who couldn't win to save themselves (Falkirk did that for us) but tend to be absolved because of who was in that team and the post-admin circumstances.

It does feel at the moment like it's our year but we've been in worse situations than this at New Year (I was also convinced we were down after the Aaron Chapman game)

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

When we were bottom after the Aaron Chapman game, we had a squad that still had Watt, Cole, Long and Campbell among other decent players.

When Baraclough came in, as much as none of them were firing, we knew Sutton could score goals and Ainsworth and Vigurs could create them.

In 2002/03 we were chronically inexperienced and probably affected by off field issues. That team had some obvious talent and was only really Gordon Marshall and Stephen Craigan away from being a top six side.

In the Malpas season, I'd happily take a good few of those players now - Skippy, Foran (before he went in January), Craigan, Reynolds, Paterson to name but a few.

In the 2016/17 season, having a front two of McDonald and Moult alone was worth a lot to a team. 

I don't think it's time to overreact about going down and I think January will be key, but as a stand-alone question of "is this the worst squad of Motherwell players in the last 25 years?" Then I'd say the answer is probably yes.

Some of those seasons, 2014/15 for example, I don't think we'd have survived without our January business and hopefully we get 3 or 4 good additions in this time and start to pick up points.

[Ron Aldo]

It's a weird one in that we've had plenty of better teams which, in terms of the league, have been in worse positions than our current squad. Despite making defensive mistakes every week and Kelly doing his best Craig Samson impression, a goal difference of -5 isn't actually too bad. 

I'm still cautiously optimistic that a couple of decent signings in January should see us safe. A centre back and a striker should be the minimum while a decent defensive midfielder would be a bonus. 

People keep asking where these players are coming from but who had heard of Peter Hartley before he signed? Or Tom Aldred (except the Inverness fans who assured us he was pish)? I'd go as far to say that some of our best signings in recent years have been made in January and, based on nothing but blind faith, I'm confident we can pull another couple out the bag again. 

[ZX1886]

5 hours ago, thisGRAEME said:

This is it, ultimately. We simply cannot be sitting scrabbling around at the end of January texting guys that used to play with us offering them a game like a badly organised five a side game. We need players and it has to be as soon as possible.

You just know we’re going to sit around until the final day then bring in James Scott on loan. 

[YassinMoutaouakil]

Hartley was 5 and a half a years ago, I doubt players like him exist anymore.  The current League One/Two equivalent is probably a vegan "ball-playing defender".

Edited December 29, 2022 by YassinMoutaouakil