Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[Handsome_Devil]

7 hours ago, Hendricks said:

Think you've got a decent side there given your budget and resources. Several very decent players at our level and really should be competing for 5th/6th this season. Will definitely have some good results throughout the season. Play pretty open so defensively more difficult to get positive outcomes against the better teams but no reason why you can't be showing consistency against most of the league. 

That's a fair assessment based on one or two games, over the season to date it's somewhat different. Playing a 50-50 (or better) occasionally in losing lets you take heart from the performance, doing it three weeks out of four as we do is relegation material.

It was clear in summer we needed a first choice CB, six and second (actually fit) striker. The scenarios are:

1) Hammell disagreed and has judgement so bad he won't make a manager.

2) Hammell agreed but this squad is as good as we can afford and we as such should brace for relegation, this season or shortly.

3) Hammell agreed but it was decided we could muddle through to January and get better value then before a proper rebuild in summer.

I still think option 3 is the most likely right now but the first two obviously don't have a non-zero probability, as those discussing nuclear armageddon like to put it

[well fan for life]

6 hours ago, Busta Nut said:

Kelly isnae very good.

He's not terrible but he's not the world class goalkeeper some folk think. In our list of keepers over the years I'd probably go.

Randolph

Carson

Gillespie

Ruddy

 

 

 

 

 

 

Kelly.

[Ron Aldo]

In the summer, a striker was probably top of our list of priorities but come January we need to be signing a commanding centre half and a defensive midfielder.

Ricki Lamie is still Ricki fucking Lamie. There was a reason we were happy to let him go Dundee and a few decent games under Alexander doesn't change the fact that he's average at best and utter dug meat at worst. Likewise with Sol, he's a handsome b*****d but nothing I've seen since he signed suggests he's very good at football. A defender in the mould of Peter Hartley (first time round) or Tom Aldred would make a massive difference to this team.

In midfield we have loads of tidy footballers but no one who can actually tackle meaning we're so easy to play through. I might get pelters for this but when Alex Gogic was floating about without a club during the summer I thought we should have went for him (maybe we did, who knows). I saw some folk suggesting Barry Maguire should be playing there but if that's the best we can do it shows how desperate we are.

[capt_oats]

4 hours ago, Handsome_Devil said:

That's a fair assessment based on one or two games, over the season to date it's somewhat different. Playing a 50-50 (or better) occasionally in losing lets you take heart from the performance, doing it three weeks out of four as we do is relegation material.

It was clear in summer we needed a first choice CB, six and second (actually fit) striker. The scenarios are:

1) Hammell disagreed and has judgement so bad he won't make a manager.

2) Hammell agreed but this squad is as good as we can afford and we as such should brace for relegation, this season or shortly.

3) Hammell agreed but it was decided we could muddle through to January and get better value then before a proper rebuild in summer.

I still think option 3 is the most likely right now but the first two obviously don't have a non-zero probability, as those discussing nuclear armageddon like to put it

I think 3 is the most probable based on what we know as well.

When Hammell got the job we had 4 centre backs in Lamie, Johansen, Mugabi and Ojala whereas our options up front were KVV, Shields, Efford and Morris. Hammell all but said at the time that his priority was the forward options.

We clearly mutualled Ojala but didn't bring anyone in to replace him - I guess we'll never know if we tried or not. Either way being objective the feeling seemed to be that in a numbers sense we'd have enough serviceable CBs to get through to January compared with the apparent dearth of goals in the team (despite what Alexander was claiming pre-season).

To that point, up until yesterday we had conceded the (joint) 3rd fewest goals in the league (we're 5th now - behind Celtic, Rangers and having conceded a goal more than both Livi and St Johnstone). Also, of Hammell's now 16 games in charge we've kept clean sheets in 6 which isn't the best but also isn't the worst.

Fwiw, we're also 5th in goals scored.

The obvious problem is the games we're not keeping clean sheets in. Of those 10 games we've only lost 1-0 in in one of them (and won one 3-2 tbf). I've now officially lost count of the number of games Hammell's come out and spoken about being "disappointed" and us having lost "poor" goals.

IMO we're definitely salvageable but the concern is that I don't think we have what's needed to fix us in the building at the moment.

Edited November 7, 2022 by capt_oats

[Casagolda]

I like Hammell but going to Tynecastle with a midfield 3 of Goss, Spittal and Slattery was… bold. Chuck in Penney who’s good going forward but isn’t a great defender and it wasn’t a surprise we were so open and shipped 3 goals- could and should have been a few more as well. 

Lamie and Sol get slaughtered but I have some sympathy with them. They might not be great but the lack of protection they get every week and the sheer amount of defending they’re bring asked to do is bound to lead to mistakes. 

Take Lamie’s booking yesterday, he was dragged out to the touch line and was forced to take one for the team because Ginnelly had got in behind Penney for the 3rd or 4th time. Yes Sol gives away the pen for the winner but Cochrane walks through 3 or 4 Motherwell players without anyone putting a challenge in just like Tillman did a few weeks ago. 

Now it’s one thing adopting an open, attacking approach when you’ve got  plenty of goals and quality in the final third. Quite another to do it when Connor Shields is part of your front three. 

On a positive note, Moult made a difference when he came off the bench and showed IF(a very big if) we can keep him reasonably fit he could contribute. Van Veen and McKinstry both improved as well with his introduction and there were positive signs of some nice link up play between them. 

But aye, while not going full Alexander at some point Hammell is going to have to recognise he doesn’t have the players to play the way he wants to and needs be a bit more pragmatic with his approach- at least in the short term.   

Edited November 7, 2022 by Casagolda

[Dosser2014]

36 minutes ago, Casagolda said:

I like Hammell but going to Tynecastle with a midfield 3 of Goss, Spittal and Slattery was… bold. Chuck in Penney who’s good going forward but isn’t a great defender and it wasn’t a surprise we were so open and shipped 3 goals- could and should have been a few more as well. 

Lamie and Sol get slaughtered but I have some sympathy with them. They might not be great but the lack of protection they get every week and the sheer amount of defending they’re bring asked to do is bound to lead to mistakes. 

Take Lamie’s booking yesterday, he was dragged out to the touch line and was forced to take one for the team because Ginnelly had got in behind Penney for the 3rd or 4th time. Yes Sol gives away the pen for the winner but Cochrane walks through 3 or 4 Motherwell players without anyone putting a challenge in just like Tillman did a few weeks ago. 

Now it’s one thing adopting an open, attacking approach when you’ve got  plenty of goals and quality in the final third. Quite another to do it when Connor Shields is part of your front three. 

On a positive note, Moult made a difference when he came off the bench and showed IF(a very big if) we can keep him reasonably fit he could contribute. Van Veen and McKinstry both improved as well with his introduction and there were positive signs of some nice link up play between them. 

But aye, while not going full Alexander at some point Hammell is going to have to recognise he doesn’t have the players to play the way he wants to and needs be a bit more pragmatic with his approach- at least in the short term.   

A pretty good take on where we are. Short term and probably in the longer one too, Hammell is going to have to modify his approach, if we are to be reasonably successful, by our standards. These frailties are by no means unique to yesterday's game, and we've witnessed them for some time now. 

[YassinMoutaouakil]

Basically imo we're playing like the 18/19 Robinson team but without David Turnbull, Ally Gorrin, Gboly Ariyibi or Tom Aldred. 

That should be the scouting remit for January IMO.

[capt_oats]

1 hour ago, Ron Aldo said:

In the summer, a striker was probably top of our list of priorities but come January we need to be signing a commanding centre half and a defensive midfielder.

Ricki Lamie is still Ricki fucking Lamie. There was a reason we were happy to let him go Dundee and a few decent games under Alexander doesn't change the fact that he's average at best and utter dug meat at worst. Likewise with Sol, he's a handsome b*****d but nothing I've seen since he signed suggests he's very good at football. A defender in the mould of Peter Hartley (first time round) or Tom Aldred would make a massive difference to this team.

In midfield we have loads of tidy footballers but no one who can actually tackle meaning we're so easy to play through. I might get pelters for this but when Alex Gogic was floating about without a club during the summer I thought we should have went for him (maybe we did, who knows). I saw some folk suggesting Barry Maguire should be playing there but if that's the best we can do it shows how desperate we are.

Aye, this is the thing - I can't help but feel that both Sol and Lamie would benefit massively from having a more "experienced" (read: better) defender alongside them. They both have their positive qualities but as a pair it feels like they're less than the sum of their parts.

That said, as @Casagolda points out they're also on a bit of a hiding to nothing given the amount of defending they're having to do.

As you say though, stick a peak Hartley or prime Aldred beside one or the other and I think you'd see improvement.

Similarly stick Ally Gorrin in front of them and it'd go some way to solving a lot of our issues.

42 minutes ago, Casagolda said:

But aye, while not going full Alexander at some point Hammell is going to have to recognise he doesn’t have the players to play the way he wants to and needs be a bit more pragmatic with his approach- at least in the short term.   

I also like Hammell and all things considered he's actually got us in a decent enough position in that we're into November 3 points off 6th and 4 points off 4th but I'm increasingly perplexed by his coming out after games, identifying issues then putting the same team out the next week and coming out after that game and identifying the same issues if we lose.

[Al B]

Firstly, I really enjoyed that yesterday. Slightly annoying to wait til we're 2 down before looking like we actually could have a go, but after we did there was a fair bit of decent play. If we're going to lose a match, I'd rather it came with the excitement of the last half hour than a whimper.

There were at least 4 or 5 occasions after he came on where Louis Moult had to (quite visibly) explain to KVV what he should be doing, much in the way that he would with a 17/18 year old coming into the side. It actually reminded me of the way Scott McDonald was with Lee Erwin. Except KVV is in his 30s and is seen by some (most likely by himself) as our best player.

He's absolutely useless and has none of the natural attributes of a #9. Constantly on his heels and reactive rather than pro-active. A natural striker will gamble on what might happen and act first in case it does. KVV waits to see what happens and then tries to react to it. Thats far too late. Ignores runs, shoots from areas where his success rate of even hitting the target is so low that it barely registers, and is so unpredictable that no team mate will ever be able to sucessfully link up with him with any kind of consistency or regularity that would allow it to be anywhere near useful.

He's capable of the odd flash of something impressive, but that's not what makes a good footballer. He has talent in there sonewhere and it pops out now and again, but has absolutely no clue what he's doing or how to play his position. He's exactly what you'd get if you took the best 5's player you'd ever seen, and put him in a real game.

No matter who we bring in, or who we try to pair him with/play off him, we won't improve overall up top until he isn't involved. Sure we'd miss out on the odd goal he scores but I'm fairly sure we'd add more overall from 2/3/4 other players.

I absolutely can't stand him...one of my least liked players we've ever had.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Al B

[eliphas]

Not sure what people's expectations were going to Tynecastle but none if it was surprising to me given it was the same squad and same tactic really. 

There are some absolutely over the top takes here. Dare I say it, that should be over on Steelmenonline rather than what I enjoyed about this forum.

Hopefully that's a reaction and it settles down. We're in a decent position league wise. If we make the tweaks needed player wise and tactically we'll be more than fine.

[Luke92]

I was annoyed yesterday but probably not as despondent as some on here. I get the frustration about losing 3 goals to 10 men but it was still Hearts away. There was still enough positives there for me.

The league is still really tight and could still go either way at this point. If we can get to the World Cup with a couple more points we should be fine.

To be honest, I've warmed to Lamie and actually think he is usually ok for our level. Sol on the other hand has been a man down since he came in. Hammell clearly doesn't fancy big Bevis as isn't the best with the ball at his feet but at the moment I'd rather see him or McGinn (if fit) moved in one than Sol starting. We all know it was crystal clear in August we needed a CB and nothing has changed in that regard. We will need to wait to January to sort that out.

It was good to see Moult getting a goal, I've been clamouring to see him and KVV playing up front together but watching yesterday I'm not sure if KVV is too used to being the main man up front or if its just going to take time to gel. Be interested to know if he was a lone striker elsewhere.  I hope we still try it on Wednesday because an alternative approach is required against the Old Firm but it didn't work as well as I thought it would in my head.

 

[capt_oats]

Breaking the games we've played this season into the rounds of fixtures it looks like this:

31/07 - St Mirren (W) - 3 pts
06/08 - St Johnstone (L) - 0 pts
13/08 - Aberdeen (W) - 3 pts
20/08 - Livingston (W) - 3 pts
27/08 - Kilmarnock (L) - 0 pts
03/09 - Dundee Utd (X) - 1 pt
01/10 - Celtic (L) - 0 pts
04/10 - Ross County (W) - 3 pts
08/10 - Hibs (L) - 0 pts
16/10 - Rangers (L) - 0 pts

Total - 13 points

22/10 - Aberdeen (L) - 0 pts (-3)
29/10 - Dundee United (W) - 3 pts (+2)
06/11 - Hearts (L) - 0 pts (NC)

Total - 3 points

So as it stands we're -1 point down from the same fixtures in the first round.

Edited November 7, 2022 by capt_oats

[welldaft]

1 hour ago, Casagolda said:

I like Hammell but going to Tynecastle with a midfield 3 of Goss, Spittal and Slattery was… bold. Chuck in Penney who’s good going forward but isn’t a great defender and it wasn’t a surprise we were so open and shipped 3 goals- could and should have been a few more as well. 

Lamie and Sol get slaughtered but I have some sympathy with them. They might not be great but the lack of protection they get every week and the sheer amount of defending they’re bring asked to do is bound to lead to mistakes. 

It is a fair point re Lamie and Sol. They don’t get much protection. But it was not the midfields fault for the 1st Hearts goal. Neither of those players could beat a midfielder in Halliday to a cross from a corner. I would have more sympathy if it was a towering Hearts centre back but they really should do better. 

You make your own luck. But I do feel fate has swung against us more than for us recently. Even on Sportsound they were talking about the Goss penalty and that he was not offside so should have been looked at. Never even featured on Sportscene. 

 

[YassinMoutaouakil]

I do rate KVV but sometimes I wonder if he has literally ever been coached properly, even a little. 

[Al B]

28 minutes ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

I do rate KVV but sometimes I wonder if he has literally ever been coached properly, even a little. 

I'm sure he has, and I'm equally as sure he'll have dismissed it as not being needed.

[Ron Aldo]

I still rate KVV but I think his deficiencies (i.e. - being a lazy b*****d) get shown up more in a league like ours than they might do elsewhere.

Even if our strikers are having a bad game, they generally work hard and run about a bit which is something you don't really get from KVV. It's all or nothing with him in that he'll either score a goal or 2 or he'll be almost invisible.

Some might disagree but I find him very similar to Higdon in that he probably feels, as a striker, that his only job is to score goals. Difference is that Higdon played in a far better team than we have currently with players who could bail him out and chip in with a goal if he had the odd stinker. We don't have that luxury at the moment which is reflected in the fact that KVV has 10 goals and our next best scorer (3) has come from own goals.

[Kapowzer]

2 hours ago, Ron Aldo said:

In the summer, a striker was probably top of our list of priorities but come January we need to be signing a commanding centre half and a defensive midfielder.

Ricki Lamie is still Ricki fucking Lamie. There was a reason we were happy to let him go Dundee and a few decent games under Alexander doesn't change the fact that he's average at best and utter dug meat at worst. Likewise with Sol, he's a handsome b*****d but nothing I've seen since he signed suggests he's very good at football. A defender in the mould of Peter Hartley (first time round) or Tom Aldred would make a massive difference to this team.

In midfield we have loads of tidy footballers but no one who can actually tackle meaning we're so easy to play through. I might get pelters for this but when Alex Gogic was floating about without a club during the summer I thought we should have went for him (maybe we did, who knows). I saw some folk suggesting Barry Maguire should be playing there but if that's the best we can do it shows how desperate we are.

I mentioned Gogic as well, proven at this level and you'd think we'd be able to compete with St Mirren on salary. Robbo has reappointed Foyle and I'd say this summer they've done among the best business in the league in terms of value with what they have, shown by where they are.

It does boil my piss during the summer when on here almost every one of us knew there were issues in our central defence and it wasn't addressed. Securing Penney was imperative but came too late in the window. Goss looking accomplished is a surprise to everyone, Maguire ... sadly a few were very optimistic on him.

Essentially we're just too soft at the moment all over the park and players like Gogic, Hartley and Aldred help eradicate that and raise the standard of those existing players around them.

Daws has been responsible for Slattery which until his transgressions and form dip is a decent find. Sol and Ojala you'd think he'd have a part in too just because they came from a pretty obscure place. He probably found our backup keeper and Penney. McGinn, Spittal and Morris were all known quantities when recruited. There's also a host of people we've pursued and not got over the line. Finding talent is one thing, but does job entail negotiation and getting their signature? Looks like he will need to earn his salary in January.

[thisGRAEME]

Forget Gogic, we should simply have waited until Keanu Baccus arrived at the airport and bundled him into a Motherwell taxi.

I do wonder if we're going to expand our scouting more internationally, as much as some of the overseas guys that clubs have brought in have been terrible (hello Chris Mueller and Mark Birighitti)  it's a market that we can delve into that England can't really any more due to their work permit limitations, compared to our "sure come on in" policy.

[capt_oats]

I understand the Gogic shouts but was he not essentially bombed out the Hibs team by Ross for not being particularly good on the ball? I'm not sure dropping him (or a player like him) into the Hammell version of this team fixes our problems. Well, it might solve some of them but chances are it creates others.

Having a swatch at the St Mirren thread there's definitely a vibe that they've chucked money at their squad this year - and absolutely fair enough. We got a nice new pitch, they got Trevor Carson and Mark O'Hara along with the likes of Baccus and Gogic. There was chat that the bold MO'H was one of our higher earners so looking at their recruitment and Gogic seemed to be one that they didn't think they were going to get.

Basically I'm not 100% certain that he'd have been value for us especially given he's another of those who seems to be between two stools in terms of what his position actually is.

I echo @thisGRAEME's post in terms of the scouting pool. Given Hammell seems to be very much a *project* it'd be interesting to know what that actually looks like in recruitment terms beyond panic signing a handful of former players (who may or may not be wildly injury prone).

Edited November 7, 2022 by capt_oats

[ropy]

McKinstry looked a bit more involved, he could come good.