Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[eliphas]

1 hour ago, capt_oats said:

To me the Sligo games feel like Airdrie in the Betfred group writ large in that respect. Except without the get out of jail card of being able to qualify as group winners regardless.

It's a moot point now but the impression I have is that the plan was to finish off our recruitment this month when you'd imagine some of those issues were planned to be addressed. Which is fine if you win the games you need to and you can sell the big picture thing.

From the guy who brought us "we don't need to replace Tony Watt" came:

For all you needed to take whatever Alexander said to the press with a crate load of salt, to follow that up with losing both Sligo games to nil and conceding 3 with Bevis' clownshoes contribution means that in hindsight it's really another in the line of judgement calls Alexander got wildly wrong.

Curiously a lot of those calls seemed to come in situations he was new to (competitive games in the LC groups in July, European qualification in July) and scenarios where he seems to have overestimated his own team and underestimated the opposition.

Who knows who we might have been targeting to bring in this month but from where we were it feels like a fresh pair of eyes coming in and looking at the squad before the window closes is almost certainly welcome.

From what I hear (same person who told me about the contract 'options' on GA/the club) the board throttled the spending a little in the summer to see how we did in the Europa League with a view to GA's future. He was basically about to be jetissoned until Lamie stepped up and got us top 6 and then Europe. So they felt they had to give him the chance. But could be argued by not being decisive end of season and letting him go,  and then constraining him spending wise ultimately led to his demise. I'm not sure they had much wriggle room either end of season if they didn't pay the full thing out.

In short, I think the new manager will have funds to make moves.

Edited August 5, 2022 by eliphas

['WellDel]

46 minutes ago, Busta Nut said:

Hate that type of update, I could have told you that Raman.

I would fucking love Raman's gig.

Tweet boring, obvious pish that absolutely anyone could through the day, then do a live report in the evening where I stumble over nearly every single sentence.

Basically a real life extension of the shite I write on here except I'd be getting paid for the privilege while travelling the country/world to sporting events.

[YassinMoutaouakil]

Could we get Alexander back for the Aberdeen game?

[Handsome_Devil]

29 minutes ago, eliphas said:

From what I hear (same person who told me about the contract 'options' on GA/the club) the board throttled the spending a little in the summer to see how we did in the Europa League with a view to GA's future. He was basically about to be jetissoned until Lamie stepped up and got us top 6 and then Europe. So they felt they had to give him the chance. But could be argued by not being decisive end of season and letting him go,  and then constraining him spending wise ultimately led to his demise. I'm not sure they had much wriggle room either end of season if they didn't pay the full thing out.

In short, I think the new manager will have funds to make moves.

If that's the case it is indeed moronic...back or sack him as you please but doing neither and ending up here is a right fucking of the situation.

[Kapowzer]

On 26/05/2022 at 19:21, Handsome_Devil said:

There's also another 100k "for each qualifying round played (unless the team advances to the group stage)" according to UEFA. Basically there's a slight separation of participation money to cover expenses and 'prize money' for when you exit. The crowd revenue from the home game then comes on top.

It's entirely possible we'll lose in Q2, highly unlikely we'll progress past Q3 so we won't be millionaires overnight but it's certainly better than fannying around in the LC group stage.

 

3 hours ago, welldaft said:

To be precise it is 350k Euros for QR2 and 550k Euros for QR3. So a difference of 200k Euros. So approx £165k. Sure by the time you add another home gate probably adds another £100k. So say £250k less bonuses and costs. 

No guarantee he would not have won a league game also to keep in position for a little longer. The million $ Q really is whether Alexander leaving now and appointing a new Manager will (hopefully) turn our season into a much better one. 

In his defence us finishing 5th and not say 8th (realistic if we finished bottom 6) and getting the 350k Euros + home gate has probably meant an extra £6-700k less costs  / bonuses. That is a fairly significant sum ! 

You overlooked the additional €100k for each round @Handsome_Devil cited. So I stand by £350k + potential for TV money too if we progressed to Q3 and emptied him after Viking would pap us out in a weeks time. A 5-1 loss may have meant he was gone today.

If not “mutually’d” after Q3 there’s a strong possibility if our performance was bad against a fellow potential struggler at home he’d be gone.

Would he have got any more than a point in Paisley?

But he gone in is and a mixture of shit prep, shit recruitment and shitty decision making on the park cost our club what can be the difference between posting accounts in the red or black.

Hobbled financially or not, we should have had enough in the tank to progress

Edited August 5, 2022 by Kapowzer

[Kapowzer]

35 minutes ago, eliphas said:

From what I hear (same person who told me about the contract 'options' on GA/the club) the board throttled the spending a little in the summer to see how we did in the Europa League with a view to GA's future. He was basically about to be jetissoned until Lamie stepped up and got us top 6 and then Europe. So they felt they had to give him the chance. But could be argued by not being decisive end of season and letting him go,  and then constraining him spending wise ultimately led to his demise. I'm not sure they had much wriggle room either end of season if they didn't pay the full thing out.

In short, I think the new manager will have funds to make moves.

After January I doubt I’d be thrilled to give him a blank cheque too. No doubt feeling hobbled would have been something he mentioned to Flao in that airport chinwag.

Shaw (loan) - Hardly used, had his arsed handed to him at Tynecastle. Not a fan of blooding their players.

Mahon - We’ve been told he’s good, maybe see him in 2024

Roberts - (loan to perm) Never recreated winter/spring 2021. Never stepped up when Tony left.

GI Joe - Fastish, looks like he’s at a level above where he should be. Definitely had more opportunities to prove himself than he’s earned. 

Niernnold - No different to Robbo giving his son a gig. Piss rip.

 

[eliphas]

13 minutes ago, Handsome_Devil said:

If that's the case it is indeed moronic...back or sack him as you please but doing neither and ending up here is a right fucking of the situation.

Aye, it's not ideal. I don't know the ins and outs of the contract options but I think sacking him in May given the finish was a bit of a non starter money wise and left no real room to negotiate. Getting pumped out of Europe however opened the door.  I am pretty happy they didn't back him either mind you.

[capt_oats]

1 hour ago, eliphas said:

Aye, it's not ideal. I don't know the ins and outs of the contract options but I think sacking him in May given the finish was a bit of a non starter money wise and left no real room to negotiate. Getting pumped out of Europe however opened the door.  I am pretty happy they didn't back him either mind you.

I thought the interview Burrows gave after the St Mirren game where he spoke about us not being a "hiring and firing club" was quite instructive in that respect. As was his point about it being very much a mutual decision rather than a straight up sacking.

It's been discussed plenty on here but it's pretty difficult to sack a manager who has met all the KPIs given to him by the board.

As it is he was given the opportunity to replace a few of the players who left from a squad that needed trimming anyway (eg: McGinn in for Grimshaw, Spittal in for Roberts and Morris in for Woolery (?)). He had a fairly low bar to clear in so much as he needed to beat a side sitting 5th in the LOI over two legs with a 24 man squad that he'd assembled.

Tbh, I'd imagine that even the board would have been surprised that he failed against Sligo the way he did and from Burrows POV seeing us choke at home in front of 3 pretty much sold out stands of home support would have been a tough one to take given it's that sort of thing that we've been trying to build towards since the transition to fan ownership.

The optics for the club sacking him now are very different to how it'd have looked had he been binned after finishing 5th and qualifying for Europe. To that point I don't think I've seen anyone other than Chris Sutton suggest that it's a harsh parting of ways.

Edited August 5, 2022 by capt_oats

[stu92]

4 hours ago, eliphas said:

From what I hear (same person who told me about the contract 'options' on GA/the club) the board throttled the spending a little in the summer to see how we did in the Europa League with a view to GA's future. He was basically about to be jetissoned until Lamie stepped up and got us top 6 and then Europe. So they felt they had to give him the chance. But could be argued by not being decisive end of season and letting him go,  and then constraining him spending wise ultimately led to his demise. I'm not sure they had much wriggle room either end of season if they didn't pay the full thing out.

In short, I think the new manager will have funds to make moves.

This is sort of how I thought we’d be going about it. To fire a manager after getting us into Europe is not ‘the Motherwell way’, but by the same token I can see why they’d not allow him to blow the transfer budget on day 1 if they’ve reservations. 

You could say that the players we’ve signed so far have been almost a like-for-like of the ones departed (Woolery aside, squad players), and that the glaring deficiencies (striker, left back, winger) are still deficient. 

As is the modern way of football, we have a head of recruitment in place so that recruitment does not hinge entirely on who the manager is. I’m sure there is already a shortlist of targeted players in each position sitting on Daws’ desk, and while the new manager may have some suggestions of his own I reckon he’ll ultimately be giving his opinion on a list of options drawn up by someone else. Given that these are key positions still missing, and if the board did have reservations over Alexander seeing out August, then I think it’s fairly sensible if we’re still sitting on some money. 

[capt_oats]

Fair play to Hammell, he's saying the right things as a caretaker.

Edited August 5, 2022 by capt_oats

[ropy]

That was the theory part of his interview, the practical is tomorrow.

[eliphas]

Have to say, very impressed with how Hammell talks and comes across. More so, than say, when Lasley was in interim charge. 

Get a result on Saturday with a bit of panache and I can see him getting it 

[Lukovic]

Tbh, If Hammell got it I wouldn't be against it. However, I think his current role within the club is arguably just as important (plus it's essentially a job for life for him) and replacing that position would be difficult as well.

Also, I do kind of want someone with some sort of track record in management or decent coaching experience.

Edited August 5, 2022 by Lukovic
Forgot to put in some text.

[Handsome_Devil]

Hammell would be a happy second choice for me, I would give the nod to Simo but not massively disappointed if it goes the other way.

What's curious is how few viable candidates there are compared to last time - in public at least. Just a quirk of who is unemployed probably because I can't see any reason we're massively less attractive than before or imagine we've suddenly fixed the press leaks.

[capt_oats]

1 hour ago, Handsome_Devil said:

Hammell would be a happy second choice for me, I would give the nod to Simo but not massively disappointed if it goes the other way.

What's curious is how few viable candidates there are compared to last time - in public at least. Just a quirk of who is unemployed probably because I can't see any reason we're massively less attractive than before or imagine we've suddenly fixed the press leaks.

That's what's struck me as well. I guess the last time there was a much shorter window as we were mid-season and bottom of the league, it felt like the names for a shortlist were leaked much more quickly.

Looking at page 1068 of The Thread Alexander's name landed in the betting market on 3rd January although he appeared in The Record's list of potentials on the 31st December the day Robinson resigned (along with Tommy Wright, Pep Clotet, Jonathan Woodgate, Jim McIntyre, Derek Adams, Alan Stubbs and erm...Billy Davies). 

That said, if the reports were correct of those supposedly interviewed Wright, Alexander, Lasley and Simon Grayson.

Here's the SkyBet market on January 5th.

Edited August 5, 2022 by capt_oats

[thisGRAEME]

I'd convinced myself by about 10am on Monday morning I'd be right behind a Hammell team.

Don't think he either wants it or will get it fwiw, but that's besides the point.

Edited August 5, 2022 by thisGRAEME

[Handsome_Devil]

3 minutes ago, thisGRAEME said:

Don't think he either wants it or will get it fwiw, but that's besides the point.

Really? He's being polite but I think it's 100% clear he wants it. Which could have him committed given how cushty his current role is but I guess that's ambition for you.

And tbh given the list of candidates, he's got no worse than a 50-50 chance...I don't think a dug out win tomorrow alone would definitely get him over the line but should he win with a bit of zip or panache on top, I think he's suddenly strong favourite.

[capt_oats]

Quote

David Clarkson’s physical Motherwell the visitors...

Good lads...

Motherwell: Aitken, Ross, Garcia, Gould, Bone, Miller, Nevans, Wells, Ferrie, MacDonald, Ross (Sneddon, White, Beattie, Flatman, Tomany)

Edited August 5, 2022 by capt_oats

['WellDel]

Yeah, Hammell came across as though he'd genuinely like to get the gig, which surprised me a bit tbh between the security of his current position and the fact that, for a first managerial appointment, he really would be right in at the deep end turning this lot into a semi-consistent, functional side.

The academy isn't somewhere we see a lot of churn, and staff moving on from there is usually their own choice rather than being pushed by the club. (I suppose there was Craggs, but that was more to do with having something other than his hamstring stretched by the physio rather than footballing matters, allegedly). He's a really good figurehead for the club in there and the job is his for however long he wants it, certainly for a lot longer than the average first team managerial appointment lasts.

All that said, he is obviously a serious contender and if he wants and is given it, I'll be 100% behind the mad, mental b*****d.

[eliphas]

1 hour ago, thisGRAEME said:

I'd convinced myself by about 10am on Monday morning I'd be right behind a Hammell team.

Don't think he either wants it or will get it fwiw, but that's besides the point.

I'm the opposite, that interview today 100% convinced me he does want it.  Otherwise he'd have ruled himself out.