Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[Handsome_Devil]

What we ask of a manager is indeed intriguing because there's more than one way we can have a 'good' season and it's not necessarily exclusive on results.

If we flooded the team with youth, played exciting football and won the majority of home games while struggling/getting pasted away en route to finishing eighth, I think folk would be thrilled - for a season.

Afterwards the pendulum would swing back towards the desire for something more solid if that was more effective.

Peak Robboball in 2017/18 was joyous because of the cups but if McHugh had launched his volley into the stand and Hearts pelted us in the replay that season would be viewed very differently because of the league performances, even having reached one final.

As horrific as we've been since Xmas, 2021/22 was a cast iron success yet it still had the manager on the brink going into the next campaign.

Flow's comments that Motherwell is a very difficult job did not go nearly far enough imo. Even the 'realists' in our support, who don't demand top six or cup runs every year expect it what, once or twice every five years? That's essentially at least winning the league of our peers - despite claiming we spend less on wages - and/or hauling a city club that spend comical amounts more.   

You've to do this while making enough in transfer fees to keep the club going and bringing through youths to maintain our identity. Short-term contracts mean building a team beyond two years is impossible. Oh and we're now getting picky about how the football looks while you do it.

I'm not saying these goals are unreasonable - our continual position in Scottish football suggests they're about right - but churning it out must be bloody hard indeed. It's no wonder even our best managers tend to end in failure.

So with that in mind, if we have a talented, motivated candidate with experience I'd be tempted to chuck them a blank canvas and let them approach it as they see fit. GA was a 'results only' man, knew the risks and paid the price. The next guy might struggle to define failure in advance but we'll all know it if we see it!

[welldaft]

I suspect Hammy is doing a good job with the Academy and so would create a short term problem if he was promoted. 

Huge respect for his career at Motherwell. Probably too early for 1st team gig, but would not be averse to him becoming Assistant Manager with a view to stepping up at some point. 

In other news I noted Sligo / Viking have drawn the team formerly known as Steaua Bucharest in the play off round. That kinds of softens the blow as been there seen and done it with the Well. Had it had been Villarreal that would have hurt. Of course given we could not beat Sligo then little chance we would get past Viking ! 

[Handsome_Devil]

10 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Worth a punt but part of the reason, historically, to bring a manager from foreign leagues would be their knowledge of those players but it's a lot harder to bring them over to the UK now post-Brexit

Alternatively bringing in someone from the Nordics used to recruiting worldwide could now be an advantage? Signing from outside the EU into the UK used to be really hard, we've seen more non-Europeans come in at a lower level than previously already.

For whatever reason the Nordic countries had different rules, they have long fished in much broader waters. It wouldn't have to be Valikari to help with this obviously but for example his squad, according to Wiki, has two Brazilians, a Nigerian, a Ghanian and a Venezuelan. 

[welldaft]

7 minutes ago, Handsome_Devil said:

What we ask of a manager is indeed intriguing because there's more than one way we can have a 'good' season and it's not necessarily exclusive on results.

If we flooded the team with youth, played exciting football and won the majority of home games while struggling/getting pasted away en route to finishing eighth, I think folk would be thrilled - for a season.

Afterwards the pendulum would swing back towards the desire for something more solid if that was more effective.

Peak Robboball in 2017/18 was joyous because of the cups but if McHugh had launched his volley into the stand and Hearts pelted us in the replay that season would be viewed very differently because of the league performances, even having reached one final.

As horrific as we've been since Xmas, 2021/22 was a cast iron success yet it still had the manager on the brink going into the next campaign.

Flow's comments that Motherwell is a very difficult job did not go nearly far enough imo. Even the 'realists' in our support, who don't demand top six or cup runs every year expect it what, once or twice every five years? That's essentially at least winning the league of our peers - despite claiming we spend less on wages - and/or hauling a city club that spend comical amounts more.   

You've to do this while making enough in transfer fees to keep the club going and bringing through youths to maintain our identity. Short-term contracts mean building a team beyond two years is impossible. Oh and we're now getting picky about how the football looks while you do it.

I'm not saying these goals are unreasonable - our continual position in Scottish football suggests they're about right - but churning it out must be bloody hard indeed. It's no wonder even our best managers tend to end in failure.

So with that in mind, if we have a talented, motivated candidate with experience I'd be tempted to chuck them a blank canvas and let them approach it as they see fit. GA was a 'results only' man, knew the risks and paid the price. The next guy might struggle to define failure in advance but we'll all know it if we see it!

Spot on. I said last season if we were playing free flowing football and narrowly losing then very few would be happy despite claims to the contrary. 

The facts are that unless you have Celtics budget then playing free flowing football and winning games all the time is simply not going to happen for a team like Motherwell. Which was why I was in a way happy with Alexander’s end results even if the football was eye bleedingly awful. 

Be interesting to know what any new Manager will have to work with in terms of new signings / budget. By all accounts there is not a lot left and even less now since we got knocked out Europa Conference League last week. 

I still believe we need a 1st choice left back, centre back, winger and back up forward to compete with Kev. 4 players that can make a difference. We get that and move on a couple then we should be OK this season. Still probably not nearly enough for top 6 after the way United, Hibs, Aberdeen and Hearts are splashing the cash. 

 

[YassinMoutaouakil]

32 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Worth a punt but part of the reason, historically, to bring a manager from foreign leagues would be their knowledge of those players but it's a lot harder to bring them over to the UK now post-Brexit

Has the work permit stuff really changed much in practicality? We seemed to sign the likes of Ojala (Finnish) and Johansen (Norwegian so not EU I suppose) with only slightly more bother than pre-Brexit, and the amount of foreign signings in the rest of the league feels like it has increased, if anything. I was under the impression that the SFA had interpretred the rules fairly liberally compared to the other UK bodies.

Not meaning to nitpick BTW, really useful summation of Valikari's career.

Edited August 2, 2022 by YassinMoutaouakil

[AsimButtHitsASix]

4 minutes ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

Has the work permit stuff really changed much in practicality? We signed to sign the likes of Ojala (Finnish) and Johansen (Norwegian so not EU I suppose) with only slightly more bother than pre-Brexit, and the amount of foreign signings in the rest of the league seems to have increased, if anything. I was under the impression that the SFA had interpretred the rules fairly liberally compared to the other UK bodies.

Not meaning to nitpick BTW, really useful summation of Valikari's career.

If I'm remembering the rules correctly it's not that hard if they are a recent international (as long as they're not playing for an uber diddie country like Vanuatu) so Ojala is easy enough but Motherwell had to go through an appeals process for Johansen and his youth caps helped him out. I guess time will tell on whether it's easier/harder in the long term.

Mind you it's not like Kampman done a great job in the transfer market when he came over. 

ETA: I mind someone from your board on the radio talking about how they were looking to make the most of the new rules and were being proactive about it at the same time a lot of English clubs were crying about it. 

Edited August 2, 2022 by AsimButtHitsASix

[capt_oats]

Just did a quick Google search and it turns out Simo's been asked about the job by the Finnish press.

He didn't exactly rule it out.

Google translate-tastic.

Quote

In 2017, Valakari went to Motherwell's job interview, when the position of the club's helm was also open.

"I don't know if I was close to getting a job. However, Motherwell will always have a special place in my heart. Coaching there one day would be my dream," Valakari told the magazine last year. 

MTV Urheilu caught up with Valakari on Saturday to comment on the newly opened possibility of returning to Scotland. The Finnish pilot admits that the possibility of coaching is still interesting. 

"Of course I'm interested. I want to coach abroad, and as always in futs, the only thing that matters is the present moment. It affects the future" Valakari says. 

However, Valakari emphasizes that he is fully focused on his current task. His contract in Kuopio runs until 2023. "We have a great thing going on at KuPS. We all focus on this fully and want to do as well as possible. Other things will happen if they happen"

Valakari adds. This season, KuPS has had a stroke of brilliance after fighting its way to the top spot of the Veikkausliiga and to the third qualifying round of the European Conference League.

Link

[Swello]

1 hour ago, welldaft said:

I suspect Hammy is doing a good job with the Academy and so would create a short term problem if he was promoted. 

I think if Hammell left his Academy role to manage the 1st team, he's need committed. He's currently doing a critical role at the club that is somewhat removed from the short term hire and fire part of being a manager. I'm sure the pay is nowhere near 1st team manager level but the academy job is likely to last more than 18 months to 2 years.

[Handsome_Devil]

12 minutes ago, Swello said:

I think if Hammell left his Academy role to manage the 1st team, he's need committed. He's currently doing a critical role at the club that is somewhat removed from the short term hire and fire part of being a manager. I'm sure the pay is nowhere near 1st team manager level but the academy job is likely to last more than 18 months to 2 years.

Unless Hammell makes it clear he desperately wants to be a manager, to the point he'll leave to do so, we shouldn't even be considering moving him.

The academy works and is crucial to the long-term running of the club. There's no way we muck around with that to solve a short-term first team problem unless there's no other choice.

[CoF]

2 hours ago, welldaft said:

Spot on. I said last season if we were playing free flowing football and narrowly losing then very few would be happy despite claims to the contrary. 

 

Yep. 

I think it's a myth that the fans would be happy with poorer results but more entertainment. In 30+ years of following Motherwell I can't recall any spell that fits that description - it might be a good laugh at first, but it would wear thin pretty quickly. 

[capt_oats]

I take it we played Dundee in a bounce game today given that looks very much like Dalziel Park.

[Swello]

35 minutes ago, CoF said:

Yep. 

I think it's a myth that the fans would be happy with poorer results but more entertainment. In 30+ years of following Motherwell I can't recall any spell that fits that description - it might be a good laugh at first, but it would wear thin pretty quickly. 

I'm getting Jim Gannon flashbacks here

[eliphas]

12 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

I take it we played Dundee in a bounce game today given that looks very much like Dalziel Park.

Aye that makes sense actually. I was up at Dalziel Park today for something else about mid day and saw a fella in a Dundee tracksuit top hanging about. Saw a few of the younger lads driving past in the mini bus too so must not have long finished. Mystery solved.

Edited August 2, 2022 by eliphas

[eliphas]

1 hour ago, capt_oats said:

Just did a quick Google search and it turns out Simo's been asked about the job by the Finnish press.

He didn't exactly rule it out.

Google translate-tastic.

If he starts calling it 'futs' he can 100% get the job right now. No interview required.

[rowsdower]

I googled Simo Valakari preferred formation, and it is 3-4-2-1

Here is a recent game from his team against the bottom team in the league. I believe this is what you call a "comprehensive scouting report"

[Busta Nut]

The other team have Mixu Paatelainen in charge.

[stu92]

On 01/08/2022 at 15:35, Archie McSquackle said:

I don't know how much behind the scenes information he actually gets but Craigan said on the radio before yesterday's game that he believed we are looking to appoint someone in the next 7-10 days to give them the chance to bring players in.

I’m pretty sure Burrows gave this fact timeline in his Sportsound interview.

 

1 hour ago, CoF said:

Yep. 

I think it's a myth that the fans would be happy with poorer results but more entertainment. In 30+ years of following Motherwell I can't recall any spell that fits that description - it might be a good laugh at first, but it would wear thin pretty quickly. 

The only time I can think of that comes close to that would be towards the end of Robinson’s spell, where we were dominating games and still getting beat. The quality of football is irrelevant to fans if there aren’t enough wins in there, as you say. 

[CoF]

1 hour ago, Swello said:

I'm getting Jim Gannon flashbacks here

Hmmm. It's maybe too short / mental a spell to judge. Plus, we had a good start to the league (one defeat in 13 and consistently 5th or above) and a decent europa run. From what I recall the football was generally good to watch and the results themselves were decent enough. 

As an aside, looking back at that season have we ever had a more successful transfer window? In:- Jennings, Humphrey, Coke, Hateley, Ruddy, Jutkiewitz (+Moutouakil and Scanlon after the window shut I think?). Imagine bringing in six players of the quality now.  

[Gallus Numpty]

26 minutes ago, stu92 said:

The only time I can think of that comes close to that would be towards the end of Robinson’s spell, where we were dominating games and still getting beat. The quality of football is irrelevant to fans if there aren’t enough wins in there, as you say. 

We finished bottom in 2003, but It was still a joy to watch Faddy every week.

[YassinMoutaouakil]

I find it pretty hard to think of Motherwell games in "entertainment" terms. On an individual level there's definitely been teams with more players I actively enjoy watching than others- Turnbull, Ainsworth, Watt etc- but at the end of the day I enjoyed Alexander wins as much as McGhee wins, McCall wins or Robinson wins.