Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[The Other Foot]

13 hours ago, virginton said:

Are Irish fitba fanboys going to just keep cherry-picking the handful of results they've had in Europe and ignoring all the bleachings, aye?

If only there was some sort of UEFA system that could weigh up all results in European competition to work out if the standard is any good or not.

https://www.uefa.com/nationalassociations/uefarankings/country/#/yr/2022

 

Sorry @virginton, this is pish. Almost all of our coefficient points come from Rangers and Celtic. Without those points, Irish clubs have a higher coefficient. (Link)

 

Last five years:

Irish clubs = 32.5

Scottish clubs outwith Old Firm = 22

 

P.S. I didn't type 'virginton'....why does it say virginton?

Edited July 29, 2022 by The Other Foot

[Richie]

2 minutes ago, The Other Foot said:

 

Sorry @virginton, this is pish. Almost all of our coefficient points come from Rangers and Celtic. Without those points, Irish clubs have a higher coefficient. 

 

Irish clubs = 32.5

Scottish clubs outwith Old Firm = 22

This is another false equivalence though.

If you theoretically remove Rangers/Celtic, then, for example, Hearts would be in the CL qualifiers in their place, then drop into Europa, then into Europa Conference etc.

The poits/potential for points doesn't suddenly disappear.

 

 

 

[Well Well]

If the manager continues to put the players out and play in a fashion where they seem to have no clue what they are doing I can see cricket scores when we play the Old Firm, potential record goals against.

I dread to think what that defence would look like without Lamie already this season. I lost count of the amount of times he had to come out and cover for Carroll it was criminal the amount of space he leaves in behind. He makes absolutely no attempt to fill back in quickly and saunters back to his position. I really hope he is binned asap.

Mugabi seems to have a confidence issue just now but he can do some half decent defending as long as he has someone covering in behind due to his inherent lapses (which was something that Lamie was prone for but seems mostly to have cut out his game). I would love Max Johnstone to play at right back he has pace to burn up and down that flank and can tackle. The guy never put a foot wrong in the Thistle game and has since been dumped in favour of McGinn who everyone can see is struggling for pace. Sol and Ojala now appear no more than squad players.

I never bought into the Maguire hype (two footed player my arse) and think he really struggled. Then again what is his role?..ball winning midfielder taking over the mantle of Allan Campbell or is that Slattery role who seems to have went backwards in his ability from what I can see so far. Can Cornelius do it? ( I don't buy into all this 'he is one' of us patter) another one like Tierney who badly needs work in the gym as they both continually lose those battles in midfield against stronger players to which at least Maguire can match. I have no idea what Goss and Spittall roles are in midfield? I think some of the guys on here with a lot better analysis can update me. As for Morris I will give him the benefit of the doubt just now until he settles but he needs to realise he cant spend all day on the ball and his thinking has to be a lot quicker as he was badly found out dithering in every game so far.

Fitness levels appear to be absolutely woeful with players fading badly at times.

We are screaming out for a leader on that park as not one player is stepping up so far and this was glaring last season as well.  The players appear to lack confidence in the style of play and tactics however anyone who questions the law according to GA appears to be side-lined quickly (Slattery/O'Donnell?) quelling any dissent or just up and leaving (Watt, Woolery).

Up front we have Van Veen, badly lacks fitness and appears to be carrying an injury of some sort or is just badly lacking match sharpness. I don't think we can rely on him solely for goals this season. Efford and Shields dont chip in anywhere near enough goals wise and don't appear to be a threat to any defences. Mahon hasnt seen a minute run out yet and I have no idea what he can bring to the squad.

When pundits (Craigan) start openly criticising the manager, his choice of signings and his tactics which all seem eye bleedingly obvious for a long time on live TV surely someone at Director level has to be asking questions. GA can't bench the directors.

The directors need to keep a weather eye on the fans because if they start protesting and staying away from games then that essential money they bring into the club dries up and I have yet to see many manager's survive when the fans protests start.

Can we also have anyone but the manager do the pre and post game interviews as I feel completely deflated after listening to his absolutely awful commentary. Thank god I am at least spared his team talks as he seems to demotivate everyone around him.

[The Other Foot]

5 minutes ago, Richie said:

This is another false equivalence though.

If you theoretically remove Rangers/Celtic, then, for example, Hearts would be in the CL qualifiers in their place, then drop into Europa, then into Europa Conference etc.

The poits/potential for points doesn't suddenly disappear.

 

 

 

Presumably Hearts wouldn't get as far as Rangers and Celtic though... the coefficient is buoyed by performance. Otherwise, it would be a direct reflection of how many teams per country get into Europe automatically. Which would, I suppose, still back up my claim that the coefficient is a poor reflection of the Scotland/Ireland divide. 

Edited July 29, 2022 by The Other Foot

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

Where goals are going to come from is a big concern for me.

Van Veen has only scored twice in the league since Watt left (one penalty).

I think only Lamie, Roberts and Efford have scored more than once from open play in that time.

[well fan for life]

18 minutes ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

Where goals are going to come from is a big concern for me.

Van Veen has only scored twice in the league since Watt left (one penalty).

I think only Lamie, Roberts and Efford have scored more than once from open play in that time.

I was thinking this during last night's game. I'm not actually joking when I say Ricki Lamie is our most credible goal threat. 

[Ric]

54 minutes ago, The Other Foot said:

 

Sorry @virginton, this is pish. Almost all of our coefficient points come from Rangers and Celtic. Without those points, Irish clubs have a higher coefficient. (Link)

 

Last five years:

Irish clubs = 32.5

Scottish clubs outwith Old Firm = 22

 

P.S. I didn't type 'virginton'....why does it say virginton?

This argument is mental, you are actively taking away the most successful in the Scottish system just so you can compare it to another league, meanwhile you don't take out the successful teams from the comparison league. While doing this you make no consideration that, with the OF out of the competition, other Scottish sides would benefit.

The analogy here is saying, that Brazil team from the 70s was amazing, but if you took out Pele, Alberto and Rivellino then they weren't a match for the West Germans. It makes no sense, and only makes any possible comparison utterly pointless.

 

Edited July 29, 2022 by Ric

[Kapowzer]

1 hour ago, The Other Foot said:

 

Sorry @virginton, this is pish. Almost all of our coefficient points come from Rangers and Celtic. Without those points, Irish clubs have a higher coefficient. (Link)

 

Last five years:

Irish clubs = 32.5

Scottish clubs outwith Old Firm = 22

 

P.S. I didn't type 'virginton'....why does it say virginton?

Do you appreciate that without the OF you would replace their spots with two others teams from the Premiership that can accumulate points? UEFA award the same if you beat Real Madrid or Bala Town, it is a win, the quality of the opposition is not taken into account like for the international teams. The nature of the Irish league is they enter at the very early stages with all the other minor leagues so their Q1 results help their co-efficient massively. Not that it helped us being able to tuck away an arguably weaker team.

Edited July 29, 2022 by Kapowzer

[RostokMcSpoons]

1 hour ago, Casagolda said:

Then there's the fans, there's literally nobody left fighting his corner. 

[AndyX]

25 minutes ago, Kapowzer said:

Do you appreciate that without the OF you would replace their spots with two others teams from the Premiership that can accumulate points? UEFA award the same if you beat Real Madrid or Bala Town, it is a win, the quality of the opposition is not taken into account like for the international teams. The nature of the Irish league is they enter at the very early stages with all the other minor leagues so their Q1 results help their co-efficient massively. Not that it helped us being able to tuck away an arguably weaker team.

That's not how the co-efficient works - maybe it used to but not now. It is an advantage to enter at later qualifying rounds because then you can't get knocked out in very early rounds.

How the club coefficients are calculated | Club coefficients | UEFA Coefficients | UEFA.com

[Kapowzer]

5 minutes ago, AndyX said:

That's not how the co-efficient works - maybe it used to but not now. It is an advantage to enter at later qualifying rounds because then you can't get knocked out in very early rounds.

How the club coefficients are calculated | Club coefficients | UEFA Coefficients | UEFA.com

You miss the memo where we were playing in the Conference League?

UEFA Europa Conference League points
1 – Awarded to each club eliminated in the first qualifying round
1.5 – Awarded to each club eliminated in the second qualifying round
2 – Awarded to each club eliminated in the third qualifying round
2.5 – Awarded to each club eliminated in the play-offs
2 – All wins from group stage onwards (except knockout round play-offs)
1 – All draws from group stage onwards (except knockout round play-offs)
2 – Group winners
1 – Group runners-up
1 – Each round clubs reach from the semi-finals

All teams are guaranteed a minimum 2.5 points in the UEFA Europa Conference League group stage (not added to points actually obtained).

[The Other Foot]

1 hour ago, Ric said:

This argument is mental, you are actively taking away the most successful in the Scottish system just so you can compare it to another league, meanwhile you don't take out the successful teams from the comparison league. While doing this you make no consideration that, with the OF out of the competition, other Scottish sides would benefit.

The analogy here is saying, that Brazil team from the 70s was amazing, but if you took out Pele, Alberto and Rivellino then they weren't a match for the West Germans. It makes no sense, and only makes any possible comparison utterly pointless.

 

 

53 minutes ago, Kapowzer said:

Do you appreciate that without the OF you would replace their spots with two others teams from the Premiership that can accumulate points? UEFA award the same if you beat Real Madrid or Bala Town, it is a win, the quality of the opposition is not taken into account like for the international teams. The nature of the Irish league is they enter at the very early stages with all the other minor leagues so their Q1 results help their co-efficient massively. Not that it helped us being able to tuck away an arguably weaker team.

 

You'll have to excuse me if I'm missing out something, chaps, because statistics are far from my strong point. My main point is that, having seen both Sligo and Motherwell play on a fairly regular basis over the last few seasons, I don't think the result last night constitutes an 'upset'. You'd be hard-picked to point out the gulf in quality if watching both teams play side-by-side over the course of a season. 

 

I also don't understand how the disparity in coefficient between Scotland and Ireland can be used to assert the apparent 'upset', given that our figures are skewed by Celtic and Rangers (you can hardly accuse the Irish figures of being skewed in the same manner - five different teams have won the LoI in the last decade*, and no team has a clear historical dominance). 

 

 

*One of which, incidentally, was Sligo

Edited July 29, 2022 by The Other Foot

[Ric]

18 minutes ago, The Other Foot said:

You'll have to excuse me if I'm missing out something, chaps, because statistics are far from my strong point. My main point is that, having seen both Sligo and Motherwell play on a fairly regular basis over the last few seasons, I don't think the result last night constitutes an 'upset'. You'd be hard-picked to point out the gulf in quality if watching both teams play side-by-side over the course of a season. 

I also don't understand how the disparity in coefficient between Scotland and Ireland can be used to assert the apparent 'upset', given that our figures are skewed by Celtic and Rangers (you can hardly accuse the Irish figures of being skewed in the same manner - five different teams have won the LoI in the last decade, and no team has a clear historical dominance). 

My main issue is with the suggestion there is a comparison to be made by creating a very contrived set of figures. If you wish to compare European games you can't selectively remove those which have been the most successful.

As for the comparison, overall LoI is of poorer quality, there simply isn't a debate to be had. That's not an insult, it's a mix of all sorts of reasons, just in the same way the Championship is poorer than the Premiership, and the Scottish Premiership is poorer than the English Premiership.

With that said, I can understand people defending LoI when you get comments like "pub league". When my team is in the Championship, and it has been on more occasions than I'd like, I can still recognise good play and players at that level, but the fact remains they are still "not as good as" teams in the Premiership.

Was this an upset? On paper, yes, it probably was. Yet there is history, which either you or another alluded to, where LoI (and LoW, and other low ranked Eastern European league teams) have had decent success against Scottish clubs. To be fair, this is a common thing for Scottish sides, and this goes for the OF too, for them to struggle at the starts of these tournaments. Rarely do we see our teams in Europe romp the first couple of rounds, normally they'll get stronger as they go on, while Motherwell struggling against Coleraine last season should have given a hint of a possible banana skin. However, overall, yes it has to be seen as an upset simply down to the size, resources, and finances between the two clubs.

Edited July 29, 2022 by Ric

[AndyX]

31 minutes ago, Kapowzer said:

You miss the memo where we were playing in the Conference League?

UEFA Europa Conference League points
1 – Awarded to each club eliminated in the first qualifying round
1.5 – Awarded to each club eliminated in the second qualifying round
2 – Awarded to each club eliminated in the third qualifying round
2.5 – Awarded to each club eliminated in the play-offs

Nope, that's the bit I'm talking about.

If Irish team enters at Q1, wins 3 ties, then get knocked out in the play-offs, they get 2.5 points.

If Scottish team enters at Play-off and gets knocked out, they too get 2.5 points.

The Irish team would *not* get loads of extra points for winning in early rounds. And the Scottish team couldn't get less than 2.5 points.

[one m in Motherwell]

Does it matter, now?

[The Other Foot]

2 minutes ago, one m in Motherwell said:

Does it matter, now?

Is your question, "do things that happen in the past matter?"

If so, then the Motherwell FC - A Thread for All Seasons thread is about to become the thinking man's thread on P&B. Hopefully we can give those intellectual c***s on the Wagatha Christie thread a run for their money. 

[Ron Aldo]

Is he gone yet?

[YassinMoutaouakil]

Was the second half any better? There's obviously been worse defensive performances- 5-1 to Dundee etc- but I'm struggling to remember us being as ineffective going forward as we were in the first half in a long long time. I could envisage us losing that game under Robinson but we'd at least fashioned a few chances through brute route one force at some point. 

[YassinMoutaouakil]

12 minutes ago, The Other Foot said:

Is your question, "do things that happen in the past matter?"

If so, then the Motherwell FC - A Thread for All Seasons thread is about to become the thinking man's thread on P&B. Hopefully we can give those intellectual c***s on the Wagatha Christie thread a run for their money. 

Were you not here during LCD Soundsystem week?

[CoF]

3 hours ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

Where are the secret board meeting Rumours when you need them.

I heard a rumour there's a board meeting late on today. Apparently he'll be gone by the morning and Slattery will step up as caretaker till they find a replacement.