Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[eliphas]

3 hours ago, thisGRAEME said:

He's 31. 

We'll get a red this season, for certain.

He's not had a history of season after season of c15 bookings to be fair to him. Generally sits around 6 a season, except from 18/19 where he found the rage and got 12.

Let's see if he now 'understands' Scottish refereeing. I have my doubts also....

[Swello]

4 minutes ago, eliphas said:

He's not had a history of season after season of c15 bookings to be fair to him. Generally sits around 6 a season, except from 18/19 where he found the rage and got 12.

Let's see if he now 'understands' Scottish refereeing. I have my doubts also....

He wasn't exactly hard done to -almost every booking came into the "fucking daft" category. Some also came into the "quite funny" category too.

[well fan for life]

1 hour ago, Swello said:

He wasn't exactly hard done to -almost every booking came into the "fucking daft" category. Some also came into the "quite funny" category too.

One was in the absolutely class category:

[Archie McSquackle]

Gallagher getting booked for doing hee haw was the funniest part of that whole incident [emoji23]

[well fan for life]

Rylan getting his photo with all the club captains today if I'm not mistaken. I think the time of SOD may be over.

[Alanos]

6 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

Knowing you c***s youd plop a 20 goal striker out your youth academy and sell him for £10m within 12 months. 

These days, we sell them for buttons (actual buttons since those magic beans turned out to be duff) before they've played for the first team. 

[Kapowzer]

Seeing Doig, Ramsay and Ferguson go this summer for commensurate money to Turnbull reinforces that Celtic got him for a song.

Seems SOD is now the latest to join the beef tombola. When Alexander goes it will be interesting to see the social media reaction from players, I suspect something akin to when Jim Gannon got his jotters (minus Las leading a celebratory singalong).

If O'Donnell is on his way out, doubt anyone would have been upset a year ago as a decent fee was being discussed after the Euro's. After a forgettable season it feels like we'll allow him to go just to get him off the books regardless of one year remaining.

Talk today on here Kelly may be off too, which was probably the plan a year ago but as he's one of the few players who was largely without criticism last year despite not being as imperious as he was before Xmas.

Woolery's press release if you read between the lines pointed to more (along with but not mentioned - being frozen out for Efford). I suppose we don't know if the Turkish mob showed interested before or after he asked to pursue alternative, but in Alexander's defence when you look at Woolery's career to date, he is a one year itchy feet sort of guy. But we did have him on a 3 year deal and I'd be surprised if he had that anywhere before.

It all feels like disharmony abounds in our enlarged dressing room.

As far as I'm concerned we've stood still as a club despite our mini windfall. Not discernible improvement in quality, more a stagnation. Problem areas not addressed, ego based fallouts continue and general malaise, apathy and fan engagement as low as I can remember.

If McMahon hasn't spoken to Flao in private to identify potential successors in a break glass incase of emergency sort of situation then I'd be very surprised.

[AdamMFC]

6 hours ago, Kapowzer said:

It all feels like disharmony abounds in our enlarged dressing room.

As far as I'm concerned we've stood still as a club despite our mini windfall. Not discernible improvement in quality, more a stagnation. Problem areas not addressed, ego based fallouts continue and general malaise, apathy and fan engagement as low as I can remember.

If McMahon hasn't spoken to Flao in private to identify potential successors in a break glass incase of emergency sort of situation then I'd be very surprised.

I agree with this. I can't remember ever feeling so apathetic and having such low confidence prior to a season even starting. I hope I'm wrong and we go on to have a good season but I just can't shake the feeling of impending doom when it comes to the league.

We've stood by while the likes of Aberdeen and Hibs who were equally as shite last season have thrown money around to fix their problems. I know we're not going to do that. Plus Alexander says he wants a more streamlined squad meaning we're likely to only add 3-4 new players but it doesn't feel like we've addressed the problems that really do need fixing: IMO a new LB, CB and a no.9 as back up to KVV while trying to get rid of the likes of Ojala. As regards to the goalie Aston Oxborough we're seemingly on the brink of signing I didn't think it was a position that needed sorting but if we're sending Connelly out on loan and Fox is injured then fair enough. I also like the idea of having a cup goalie and I reckon Oxborough could fill that role well without being a drop off the cliff in terms of quality. It also means that when Kelly does go (whenever that may be) we've got someone who is relatively match fit and ready to go.

[Handsome_Devil]

5 hours ago, Kapowzer said:

As far as I'm concerned we've stood still as a club despite our mini windfall. Not discernible improvement in quality, more a stagnation. Problem areas not addressed, ego based fallouts continue and general malaise, apathy and fan engagement as low as I can remember.

I completely agree that's the feeling, I think though that the short-term (well since Xmas, are we into medium-term?) form of the first team colours that somewhat.

Alternatively you could say we've completed the biggest stadium improvements in decades over the last two years, are still working towards the training solution with the deal at DP and the new media team will bring a much needed freshness to our comms.

Remarkably we've emerged from a potentially existential threat in the pandemic not only unharmed but probably safer finances than before.

The team is currently a debacle no doubt but the club is only drifting a little and would seem much more positive with a couple of tweaks and the team pulling their finger out their arse.

As for dressing room disharmony, meh...you'd be upset if everything was sweetness and light after four wins in 23 or whatever. 

And as for fans, ST sales have held up so I wouldn't worry about mood (long-term on the club, not short-term on the team) just yet. Survive Thursday somehow, present a new striker on Friday and suddenly things will feel very different.

Alternatively bin Alexander this month, find a replacement with potential and again there is an overnight flip.

Football fans must be the must switchable group on the planet, they can be raging in May at relegation and return in August full optimism for being promoted.

We have tonnes of work to do on and off the park and seeing the city clubs throw relatively huge amounts around is unsettling for sure...but in the bigger picture things are not quite as bad as they seem, and I say that as someone who has also been moaning for months.

[Handsome_Devil]

2 minutes ago, AdamMFC said:

We've stood by while the likes of Aberdeen and Hibs who were equally as shite last season have thrown money around to fix their problems. 

At the risk of sounding overly negative, we should not be worrying about what Hibs/Hearts/Aberdeen do. It has always been the case if they spend their money as well as us they will finish well ahead of us. The years they get it right I just shrug, the years they get it wrong I take it as a bonus and hope we can take advantage - and like last season we, somehow, often do. We can hope to get 20% more return on what we spend than them but it is not pessimistic to admit that's impossible to achieve every season.

That perspective is probably an age thing though - we have done so well at bridging the gap over the last couple of decades, we have a generation or two of fans who think it's natural we challenge these teams for Europe. If you started going when I did, you hoped to beat them over 90 minutes but the notion of finishing ahead of them (Aberdeen - a few years on from beating Real Madrid, Hearts - beat Bayern and should have won league, United - UEFA finalists) when we were trying to establish ourselves in the league was in the realms of fantasy.

As long as we're safe in the league it's not a bad season, as long as we finish in the top half occasionally or have some cup runs it's a good half-decade.

We're on a low now for sure but everyone, myself included, is in danger of losing perspective a bit.

[For Your Pies Only]

10 minutes ago, Handsome_Devil said:

At the risk of sounding overly negative, we should not be worrying about what Hibs/Hearts/Aberdeen do. It has always been the case if they spend their money as well as us they will finish well ahead of us. The years they get it right I just shrug, the years they get it wrong I take it as a bonus and hope we can take advantage.

I think this is a really good point and I'd agree - also, I'm not thrilled with the signings made so far but I do think you can see where some of the money from our top six finish last year is being spent in terms of infrastructure, which is equally important following Covid. 

I've seen quite a few folk online getting bent out of shape by Dundee Utd's spending too, but I don't think that's something we should be aspiring to IMO. The way they are chucking money about,  especially on wages, doesn't seem sustainable. Echoes of the Boyle era at Motherwell...

[thisGRAEME]

27 minutes ago, For Your Pies Only said:

I've seen quite a few folk online getting bent out of shape by Dundee Utd's spending too, but I don't think that's something we should be aspiring to IMO. The way they are chucking money about,  especially on wages, doesn't seem sustainable. Echoes of the Boyle era at Motherwell...

Strongly agree.

Losing 3 million a year in 2020, wages to turnover of 120%. 

Levitt is obviously brought in with a view to punting him post world cup, but Fletcher has no value, and I can't see them punting Watt either.

Fair enough, an owner willing to bail them out on it, but that's something we don't have, and given that we (I think?) Have finally paid off Hutchinson et al from previous financial splurges, I'm not sure what people want.

As someone else highlighted, over the last two decades, we've made hay while other clubs have fucked up, and the reality is that's where we sit in the financial pecking order.

[Swello]

1 hour ago, For Your Pies Only said:

I think this is a really good point and I'd agree - also, I'm not thrilled with the signings made so far but I do think you can see where some of the money from our top six finish last year is being spent in terms of infrastructure, which is equally important following Covid. 

I've seen quite a few folk online getting bent out of shape by Dundee Utd's spending too, but I don't think that's something we should be aspiring to IMO. The way they are chucking money about,  especially on wages, doesn't seem sustainable. Echoes of the Boyle era at Motherwell...

The city clubs have always outspent us, even when we were peak-Boyle - the challenge for them is actually getting value for that money/punching their weight and the evidence of the last 20 years is that (a) it's not the simple and (b) they never all achieve this at the same time.

Hearts look like they've cracked it in the short term at least, Aberdeen under McInnes did it on a sustained basis but pure budget has never been the deciding factor - only the OF have such a laughable financial advantage that their shite teams are still better than everyone else's good ones.

Lastly - we've actually been very good at taking advantage of the weaknesses of the bigger clubs over the years (we did it just last season in fact). While Hibs, Utd, Hearts & Rangers were in the lower leagues, we were managing 2nd and 3rd place finishes and if one or more of them are having mediocre seasons, we've usually ended up in the Top 6 or in Europe.

Our challenge this season is having a solid enough team to step in when the early season hype inevitably crashes on one or more of these clubs.

 

 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Swello

[welldaft]

8 hours ago, Kapowzer said:

It all feels like disharmony abounds in our enlarged dressing room.

This was asked of a Board Member recently and they denied there was any great conspiracy theory or fall out between players and Manager. I suspect the truth lies in between your theory and their stated fact.

The likes of Sir Alex and Mourinho are / were always falling out with players. This happens all the time. Generally when the Manager feels they are not playing to their potential or being a disruptive influence or both. 

Alexander strikes me as no nonsense guy. A consummate pro he no doubts compares players to how he approached the game. Full of commitment etc. Yes stubborn also. 

Players that are not playing or being overlooked - even if justified will not be happy. Some will get on with the job others will be a bit more vocal. This happens in every dressing room. So it hardly comes as a surprise. 

Watt is often cited as an example and even more recently Woolery. But I have not seen it mentioned that Lamie decided to rejoin the club. Joining Dundee was probably not going to happen but he did have other offers. Van Veen extending his contract. I am sure for a financial lift. But just two examples of players that cannot be unhappy to stick around. 

If we were winning every game or most games this probably would not even be discussed. 

[CoF]

41 minutes ago, welldaft said:

Watt is often cited as an example and even more recently Woolery. But I have not seen it mentioned that Lamie decided to rejoin the club. Joining Dundee was probably not going to happen but he did have other offers. Van Veen extending his contract. I am sure for a financial lift. But just two examples of players that cannot be unhappy to stick around. 

My thoughts exactly. There's no way there's the level of Gannon-esque unrest in the squad just now. I think we're seeing a bad run of results and connecting some extremely tentative dots. 

The fact Watt even comes into the debate is laughable. He was great for us but he's a track record of getting on the wrong side of managers. At his peak with us I remember Marvin Bartley on the radio saying there was a striker in Scotland who should be getting into the national team because of his quality, but he won't get picked because of his attitude and disruptive influence. He didn't name Watt, but it was obvious that's who he was talking about and it came across as an 'in the know' comment. 

[Busta Nut]

Comparing our spending to the "bigger" diddy clubs is always mad but especially now when a few of them have American backers who are throwing cash around.

Doesn't stop me thinking about our signings and where our old signing policy has gone.

[ropy]

Happy to be distracted by tales of ‘Well fans making their way across the Emerald Isle.

[Swello]

5 minutes ago, ropy said:

Happy to be distracted by tales of ‘Well fans making their way across the Emerald Isle.

I'll send Ferry pics later

[Antiochas III]

It is interesting seeing the chat on twitter about we need to find a KvV backup when I look back and think, who the hell was Moult's, Sutton's, Higdon's or McDonald's. 

 

Of course, the chat is mostly from the same people moaning about not giving youngsters a chance 

[Kapowzer]

3 hours ago, Handsome_Devil said:

At the risk of sounding overly negative, we should not be worrying about what Hibs/Hearts/Aberdeen do. It has always been the case if they spend their money as well as us they will finish well ahead of us. The years they get it right I just shrug, the years they get it wrong I take it as a bonus and hope we can take advantage - and like last season we, somehow, often do. We can hope to get 20% more return on what we spend than them but it is not pessimistic to admit that's impossible to achieve every season.

That perspective is probably an age thing though - we have done so well at bridging the gap over the last couple of decades, we have a generation or two of fans who think it's natural we challenge these teams for Europe. If you started going when I did, you hoped to beat them over 90 minutes but the notion of finishing ahead of them (Aberdeen - a few years on from beating Real Madrid, Hearts - beat Bayern and should have won league, United - UEFA finalists) when we were trying to establish ourselves in the league was in the realms of fantasy.

As long as we're safe in the league it's not a bad season, as long as we finish in the top half occasionally or have some cup runs it's a good half-decade.

We're on a low now for sure but everyone, myself included, is in danger of losing perspective a bit.

All the stuff you cited are off field stuff and firmly in Flao's wheelhouse. I think we need to make a clear distinction. The significant investments in the Hunter and pitch will be funded through the Scottish government loan and are no doubt seen as offering good ROI. Attracting Scotland games at all levels, lower league cup games, pre-season games and reducing the annual pitch rip up and associated costs.

The issues lie firmly on the pitch. We now have had 18 months of Alexander's football, defined by 3x 6 month periods. The first, keep up in the division by hell or high water. Yes we were bottom after Accies but like this year the points spread was not huge, 2 wins and you're in the mix for top 6. We weren't bothered about total football we just wanted points and safety and he delivered. We accepted it because survival was the goal.

The second was up till Christmas where despite having a summer to mould the squad and source players he wanted to fit we continued with a lot of the same turgid stuff. Often bailed out by Tony's distinct difference in quality and new found ability to find the net. This is when the first murmerings of disquiet came out, Slattery dropped for questioning the gameplan, Tony sticking the boot in on his first Day at Tannadice (obviously a bit more to it including financial and as stated his reputation for chirping).

The third has been well discussed on here, the infamous Tombola and while not a death spiral as it was mostly, alternating losses and draws, peppered with Morton and Aberdeen cup wins. Unexplainable lineups where those few in form were dropped for continued under performers.

When you look over his tenure you see a trend of us repeatedly coming up short against poorer baseline teams, all in poor form themselves Dundee 4x (3 League and 1 Cup), Morton, Sligo. Complacency, not getting them fired up, gallus swagger or something else I don't know.

The other Scottish clubs you cite will always have access to bigger fanbases, corporate sponsorship and therefore revenues. I'm reluctant to cite their 80's prowess in the modern context. The gap between all clubs in Europe was certainly smaller than now due to the UEFA money and ad revenues. However, domestically today outside the OF the rest league placing results shows money doesn't guarantee harbitual success. Motherwell's niche is doing the legwork on players and getting them to perform as a whole, greater than the sum of the individual parts.

Our on field success on the player front have been arguably Kelly and Slattery. Both of which cost us money and top of our scale salaries. We've not secured many on a free who have exceeded expectation like in previous years and I include KVV in that.

As for players extending contracts, many of us have worked or currently are in a place where its not ideal but it is also not toxic. We put up with it for an easy life and a guaranteed paycheck. A desire to avoid upheaval and moving can sometimes be as much of a motivator as finding the perfect environment.

As for squad disharmony, as I said the inevitable coded or brazen messages that will come out from players past and present when Alexander moves on or is pushed will be telling.