Handsome_Devil Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 9 hours ago, welldaft said: Only 15 and starring in the Scotland under 17’s. No wonder there are rumours of Rangers and English Premiership clubs sniffing about. If does not just affect Motherwell as we know from Gilmour joining Chelsea and Doakes going from Celtic to Liverpool recently. My point is this. Is there any point of having an Academy ? Will we ever have another Turnbull on our hands ? Most young players with promise leave by the time they are 16/17 such as McAlear and McKinstry. Sure we get a few hundred 000. But if Rice and Miller are the real deal they could be worth £millions in a few years time The short answer is yes, absolutely. It's obviously frustrating if we don't see our best youths play for us before we leave. But: - there is all kinds of cash available for running a proper academy. I forget the what, why, when etc but it's in the accounts - producing good players who get moves that are probably life-altering at 15/16, if not setting them up for life, is a brilliant recruitment advert for the level below them to join us - some players will choose to hang around for the first team path, others will develop a little later - having a Maguire, Cornelius etc in the squad (on peanuts, at least at first) saves wages that would go to a senior back-up - we're protected to an extent by the rules, should McKinstry, McAlear etc eventually go for big bucks we get a percentage The trend of big clubs hoovering up even more talent than usual is highly annoying but we should still be funding the academy as much as possible. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casagolda Posted April 7, 2022 Author Share Posted April 7, 2022 10 hours ago, welldaft said: My point is this. Is there any point of having an Academy ? Will we ever have another Turnbull on our hands ? Most young players with promise leave by the time they are 16/17 such as McAlear and McKinstry. Sure we get a few hundred 000. But if Rice and Miller are the real deal they could be worth £millions in a few years time Could being the key word though. They could be worth millions. They could be playing for East Fife like Jamie Semple. Who I’m sure was being chased by hundreds of clubs and playing for our U20’s when he was only 14. By the time he was 20 he was released having only made half a dozen or so first team appearances. I’m sure between Turnbull, Campbell Scott, Hastie, McKinstry and MacLear the club must have made about 5m plus over the last few years. Not to mention what we could make in the future or what the first few contributed to the first team. As above, even this season Cornelius is coming onto a game and currently establishing himself as a regular. While Maguire has recently signed a new deal and shown at worst that he’s a decent squad player at this level. Johnston seems to be doing well on loan as well and will surely be in the first team mix for next season etc. I think people get too worked up about sensationalist articles about teenage wonder kids. It can go either way for a multitude of reasons at that age, a lot of which are out with the clubs control. What we can control, the club seems to do a pretty good job of and going by recent years they seem to get a lot more right than they get wrong in that department. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capt_oats Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 (edited) Both @Handsome_Devil and @Casagolda have pretty much covered it but for my 2c: I seem to remember it being mentioned by either Craigan or Ross (maybe both) that the hope with each "cycle" was that we'd see maybe a few break into the first team with the hope that one or two develop even further. The group that gave us Turnbull, Campbell, Scott, Hastie et al was probably the exception rather than the rule. In that respect if we get a Cornelius establishing himself as a first team player in the same way Campbell did but it means we lose a McKinstry before they get to kick a baw then while it's 100% annoying it probably means the Academy is functioning as the club would anticipate - I doubt the club expect 4 or 5 Academy players to be bounced into the first team every summer although the constant struggle to keep kids at the club is no doubt a frustration. It's mentioned in the posts above but if we're talking about the 'point' of the Academy then there are degrees of how you interpret that. We're developing players for the first team to varying degrees (could we afford to "buy" a Turnbull or a Campbell? Absolutely not), there's the community aspect of giving players a platform and allowing them to develop their career if not at Motherwell then potentially at other levels and finally there's the fact that we can monetise the academy either through grants and funding. Fwiw, Here's the Youth Cup winning team and additional 'products of the Motherwell Academy' plus the number of games played and where they moved to, most of them still seem to be kicking a baw (apologies to anyone I've missed): Allan Campbell - 160 games (signed for Luton Town) Chris Cadden (boooo) - 139 games (signed for Columbus Crew) Barry Maguire - 57 games James Scott - 42 games (signed for Hull) David Turnbull - 41 games (signed for Celtic) Dominic Thomas - 39 games (signed for Kilmarnock) Ross Maclean - 22 games (signed for Falkirk) Jack McMillan - 20 games (signed for Livingston) Jake Hastie - 18 games (signed for Rangers) (+ 17 games - loan) Ben Hall - 18 games (signed for Brighton) David Ferguson - 16 games (signed for Ayr United) Adam Livingstone - 12 games (signed for Cove Rangers) Luke Watt - 10 games (signed for NV Novigrad) Jamie Semple - 8 games (signed for East Fife) Dean Cornelius - 7 games Dylan Mackin - 5 games (signed for Livingston) Max Johnston - 2 games David Devine - 1 game Stuart McKinstry - 0 games (signed for Leeds United) Reece McAlear - 0 games (signed for Norwich City) Brett Long - 0 games (signed for Dundee United) Robbie Leitch - 0 games (signed for Burnley) Dylan Falconer - 0 games (n/a) PJ Morrison - 0 games That said, whether it's been a conscious decision by the club or it's just been a result of the way things are post-pandemic in Scottish football it feels like there's less visibility with the Academy stuff beyond the little bits of #content we've seen or socials posts about Miller, Rice and Johnston getting international call-ups for the age groups or the video packages about Cornelius and Johnston. The club don't cover the Youth levels through official channels and the fact that the Reserve league has been mothballed means there's a bit of a vacuum in the space below first team level compared to what we used to see when we were getting u20 Dev league highlights up via the YouTube on a weekly basis. I suppose the upshot of that is that a disconnect can develop whereby if we're not seeing/hearing about these players then the assumption is that they're either being ignored by the management or they're not there. Edited April 7, 2022 by capt_oats 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YassinMoutaouakil Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 I'm not saying this outweighs the negatives but to play devil's advocate, I suppose that we'll probably end up missing out on a few decent players, but bigger clubs hoovering up any young player in the off chance they strike gold has probably made us few hundred grand on boys that would never have made it at us anyway-Ben Hall, Hastie, Robbie Leitch etc. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ropy Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 1 hour ago, capt_oats said: Dylan Falconer - 0 games (n/a) For info, Falconer was playing for Blantyre (Vics?) a few years ago so wasn’t lost to the game entirely. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marinello Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 Regarding Cadden . Anybody know if we are still pursuing Columbus Crew/ USA FA for monies ( believed)owed to the club or is it a lost cause? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capt_oats Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 8 minutes ago, ropy said: For info, Falconer was playing for Blantyre (Vics?) a few years ago so wasn’t lost to the game entirely. Yeah, I had a feeling he was maybe playing Juniors but I'd found an interview with him where he was talking about Turnbull and he said that after he'd left Motherwell he'd taken a year out of football and his TransferMarkt shows no club so left it as n/a. https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/dylan-falconer/profil/spieler/321406 Quote “I was a bit fed up with football and took a year out after Motherwell, working as a grass-cutter. But I’m looking to try and get another club next season." Link - it's The Sun so f**k linking to them 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desp Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 1 hour ago, YassinMoutaouakil said: I'm not saying this outweighs the negatives but to play devil's advocate, I suppose that we'll probably end up missing out on a few decent players, but bigger clubs hoovering up any young player in the off chance they strike gold has probably made us few hundred grand on boys that would never have made it at us anyway-Ben Hall, Hastie, Robbie Leitch etc. Is Hastie not going to make it? Shame. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelmen Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 2 hours ago, capt_oats said: Dominic Thomas - 39 games He played 39 games for us??? does this include reserves/u21's? I know my memory isn't great but i can only think of a few times he played in the first team. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capt_oats Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 Just now, steelmen said: He played 39 games for us??? does this include reserves/u21's? I know my memory isn't great but i can only think of a few times he played in the first team. 33 league appearances, 1 Cup and 5 League Cup https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dom_Thomas 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desp Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 2 hours ago, capt_oats said: Dominic Thomas - 39 games One less than the % of his sell-on we're due when he finally makes it! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisGRAEME Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 The flipside of bodies disappearing out of our academy before they've come close to our first team is that some will certainly stick around on the basis that they'll get proper first team football with us. Depend what you view as more valuable to you as a player. Some we'll lose, some we'll win, same as everything else I guess. 37 minutes ago, Desp said: One less than the % of his sell-on we're due when he finally makes it! The disappointment when Desp realises it probably didn't carry over to the Pars will be incredible. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busta Nut Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 I think DT has found his level. Bottom Champ/League 1. Probably kick about there for a decade. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desp Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 1 hour ago, thisGRAEME said: The disappointment when Desp realises it probably didn't carry over to the Pars will be incredible. You mean we've already received it? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welldaft Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 I was kinda in the huff when I asked the Q around youth Academy. It has clearly yielded players and cash benefits to the club these past 5 or so years. If Rice is to leave we would hope he goes to a Premiership side. I am sure I read Celtic were in line for £600k compensation for Doakes. That I could almost live with. If he chose to go to Rangers I would be a bit more p1ssed. I assume we would get less £££. All that said hopefully he continues his upwards momentum and signs a new contract with Motherwell. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Brightside Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 I don't have much to add, other than Chris Cadden is a fucking rat. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capt_oats Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 Doing a bit of digging and according to the blog that covers Rangers youth teams we're 4th in the u18s league and we beat them 3-1 last month. https://rfcyouths.wordpress.com/under-18-league-2021-22/ There's a match report on Aberdeen's official site from a game we won 5-3 that gives a team line and it's interesting to see who was playing vs who's listed on our official site https://www.motherwellfc.co.uk/squad/reserves/. https://www.afc.co.uk/report_nostats/report-motherwell-u18s-v-aberdeen-u18s/ There's also a report from the more recent game we won 3-0. https://www.afc.co.uk/report_nostats/u18s-young-dons-beaten-by-well/ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kapowzer Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 Hibs kids, 10 games out of sync with bottom club Celtic. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busta Nut Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 Hibs have 7/8 games in hand. League is theirs to lose. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kapowzer Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 2 minutes ago, Busta Nut said: Hibs have 7/8 games in hand. League is theirs to lose. Just felt better to type my summary Busta. Did my soul some good. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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