Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[capt_oats]

I'd stop short of calling this interesting but it feels like precisely the same conversation Alexander had with Watt a couple of weeks ago and got goals out of him as well.

Quote

It's the second and third time Van Veen has netted against Aberdeen this season, playing through the centre of Alexander's 4-3-3. He believes that suits his game.

“He spoke to me about what he wanted," said Van Veen. "I have been dropped out of the team for a reason. I have been playing a bit on the left but on Saturday I was back in the centre.

“That was my first start since St Johnstone earlier in the season. I prefer to be in the centre and I paid him back with a good performance and two goals.

"The conversation was that he wanted more from me to get back in the team. I have trained well and he paid me back by putting me in the team and I repaid him with two goals.

“That is three goals and an assist in two games. It is probably a team that suits me the best. My goals were good striker goals."

Link

Edited November 11, 2021 by capt_oats

[Guest superward]

2 hours ago, capt_oats said:

I'd stop short of calling this interesting but it feels like precisely the same conversation Alexander had with Watt a couple of weeks ago and got goals out of him as well.

It's defintley a KVV Vs Watt competition to play through the middle. Whether it was by design, or because Tony didn't get his move in August, fair play for Alexander for getting them both scoring. If we could get a system for them to both score and contribute in the same team at a high level like they do through the middle we'd be laughing.

[capt_oats]

Again, the SPFL Twitter admin knows the score.

[Doctor Manhattan]

10 hours ago, well fan for life said:

Christ he's a dreamboat, eh. 

[capt_oats]

6 hours ago, superward said:

It's definitely a KVV Vs Watt competition to play through the middle. Whether it was by design, or because Tony didn't get his move in August, fair play for Alexander for getting them both scoring. If we could get a system for them to both score and contribute in the same team at a high level like they do through the middle we'd be laughing.

Aye, this is actually what low-key interested me tbh. We've got goals from both Watt and KVV when they've played centrally but pushing one of the two into the wide role feels like it's clipping their wings a bit. 

For all the 433 has its faults with the balance of the squad we have (*looks at our midfield*) since he's come in, give or take a few tweaks with how it's implemented (eg: we've flirted now and again with playing from the back), Alexander has used 433 but consistently had our central striker scoring goals in a way we never did when Robinson was here.

Compare the scoring return from Cole, Watt and KVV under Alexander with SR's 433 in the Sexy Motherwell phase which was the same shape in terms of "formation" but had a far heavier lean on our midfield to score (Turnbull, Donnelly) and came unstuck once those midfield goals dried up and few of our "anywhere across the front 3" forwards were scoring. Which I suppose is how we landed on 68% possession, 17 shots on goal and 13 corners but still lost 1-0 against Accies.

It's not exactly the same thing but @PauloPerth made a point in the St Johnstone thread earlier about Davidson putting an emphasis on his front players pressing and closing down in their system, which felt familiar with what we saw around the Main era Motherwell but it made me think about the difference we've seen in that specific role. Like, Cole literally went from having scored 1 goal in 10 appearances under Robinson to 11 in 21 under Alexander in the same season with both managers playing a 433.

Agree though, it'd be nice to get a way of having both Watt and KVV in the side and getting the best out of both.

Actually, here's the scoring split in all competitions since Alexander took over in January:

Spoiler

Played: 39 games

Cole - 11
Watt - 9
Van Veen - 4
Long - 4
Roberts - 3
Mugabi - 3
Campbell - 3
O'Hara - 2
Maguire - 2
O'Donnell - 2
Lamie - 2
Woolery - 2
Foley - 1
Lawless - 1
Amaluzor - 1
Grimshaw - 1
Ojala - 1
Slattery - 1

Total: 53 (1.35 GPG)

Forwards: 35 (66.03%)
Midfielders: 10 (18.86%)
Defenders: 8 (15.09%)

Out of curiosity here are the 3 Robinson seasons:

Played: 46

Forward: 34 (54.83%)
Midfield: 22 (35.48%)
Defender: 6 (9.67%)

Total: 62 (1.32 GPG)

Played: 45

Forward: 33 (54.09%)
Midfield: 21 (36.06%)
Defender: 7 (11.47%)

Total: 61 (1.35 GPG)

Played: 51

Forward: 47 (70.14%)
Midfield: 11 (16.41%)
Defender: 9 (13.43%)

Total: 67 (1.31 GPG)

Edited November 11, 2021 by capt_oats

[Busta Nut]

Get Bevis up top.

I think we need to try a "wonky" front 3. Have KVV and Watt play as a two and a winger who can float from side to side. f**k it.

[Kapowzer]

Doesn't a lot of where you play in a front 3 go out the window during a set piece like our second on Saturday?

If Lamie didn't connect with the header, bold Tony was 2ft behind and would have went for it with the head or volley, strong/better connected header back across the goal had Roberts unmarked at the back stick.

[Guest superward]

8 hours ago, Kapowzer said:

Doesn't a lot of where you play in a front 3 go out the window during a set piece like our second on Saturday?

If Lamie didn't connect with the header, bold Tony was 2ft behind and would have went for it with the head or volley, strong/better connected header back across the goal had Roberts unmarked at the back stick.

I'd imagine the central striker would always be where KVV was and the aim of the set piece seems to have been to put the ball into that general area. 

[Swello]

14 hours ago, capt_oats said:

Again, the SPFL Twitter admin knows the score.

Nice to see his 12th best goal for us get an outing.

[well fan for life]

15 hours ago, capt_oats said:

Again, the SPFL Twitter admin knows the score.

This struggles to make the top 10 in Lionel moments. Still class though. 

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

I think the Watt and Van Veen conundrum, if we continue with the current system, is solved by the fact that Watt can be effective on the left and up top, whereas Van Veen only seems to be effective through the middle.

Watt's work rate was great when he was through the middle under Robinson, but as everyone else had appeared to chuck it at the time, he was always trying to drop deep and wide to get involved in the game, instead of focusing on being the focal point.

When Alexander arrived and moved Watt to the left and Cole through the middle, Watt started racking up the assists and Cole starting racking up the goals, it made me wish it had been done sooner.

Of Watt's eight goals this season, five have came when he's playing wide (QOTS, St. Johnstone, St. Mirren x2 and Dundee Utd (he had moved there by the time we won the pen)) and really only three (Livingston, Dundee, Ross County) have come when he has been through the middle. I know two of the goals included in the five were pens, but I think it's fair to include them as he won both himself.

Van Veen obviously played that exquisite cross to Ojala in the Aberdeen game, but in open play he looks a bit of a lost soul out left.

Watt might consider himself to be a centre-forward and might be dragging his heels to play there, but for me to get the best out of both in the current system it's a no brainier that Watt's on the left and Van Veen's through the middle.

Edited November 12, 2021 by crazylegsjoe_mfc

[ropy]

Can they not rotate within a match? 

[one m in Motherwell]

All we need is Stevie McGarry back on the right and we'd be set...

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

13 minutes ago, ropy said:

Can they not rotate within a match? 

That sounds far too fluid to be a Graham Alexander tactic 

[capt_oats]

50 minutes ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

That sounds far too fluid to be a Graham Alexander tactic 

I was going to say the same thing.

Reading between the lines, from what both Watt and KVV have said, the instruction they've both had has been to play as a more traditional #9 and be selfish with it rather than anything fluid in the way McGhee's front 3 worked (even the Moult, McDonald, Johnson version).

[Guest superward]

1 hour ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

I think the Watt and Van Veen conundrum, if we continue with the current system, is solved by the fact that Watt can be effective on the left and up top, whereas Van Veen only seems to be effective through the middle.

Watt's work rate was great when he was through the middle under Robinson, but as everyone else had appeared to chuck it at the time, he was always trying to drop deep and wide to get involved in the game, instead of focusing on being the focal point.

When Alexander arrived and moved Watt to the left and Cole through the middle, Watt started racking up the assists and Cole starting racking up the goals, it made me wish it had been done sooner.

Of Watt's eight goals this season, five have came when he's playing wide (QOTS, St. Johnstone, St. Mirren x2 and Dundee Utd (he had moved there by the time we won the pen)) and really only three (Livingston, Dundee, Ross County) have come when he has been through the middle. I know two of the goals included in the five were pens, but I think it's fair to include them as he won both himself.

Van Veen obviously played that exquisite cross to Ojala in the Aberdeen game, but in open play he looks a bit of a lost soul out left.

Watt might consider himself to be a centre-forward and might be dragging his heels to play there, but for me to get the best out of both in the current system it's a no brainier that Watt's on the left and Van Veen's through the middle.

Yeah I think that's the best way to play it too. Keeping them both happy is the challenge.

[YassinMoutaouakil]

You wouldn't be fitting out an office if you were planning on moving house at the end of the season... right?

 

[capt_oats]

Missed this article at the time during the summer but @Yenitit's post in the Dundee thread about looking at managers from abroad put me in mind of Simo.

Quote

The 48-year-old Finn – whose son Onni is Motherwell-born and made the Finland squad at Euro 2020 last month – put his hat in the ring to take over as boss when Mark McGhee was sacked in 2017, but lost out to Stephen Robinson.

Ex-midfielder Valakari says he doesn’t know how close he came to the Fir Park hot seat, but hopes one day to return to Motherwell in that capacity, having played for them from 1996-2000.

“I miss Motherwell,” he said, “I had a beautiful four years there playing and the experience of Scottish football, playing those big matches against Rangers, Celtic, and teams like that, so it was good.

“I don’t know if I was close [to getting the job] but my ambition is one day to coach abroad.

“I’ve done that already in Norway for three years [at Tromso], but to be able to coach in the UK or in Scotland would be my dream, because I really loved the football and the culture.

“Motherwell always has a special place in my heart, because that was the first professional team I played for, and I had a very good connection with the fans and things like that.

“Someday to manage them would be a dream."

Link

I see his currently club KuPS are 2nd in the Finnish league just now.

Kind of feels like the timings just been slightly off when he's been in for the job previously. We were in free-fall when he interviewed post-McGhee and in hindsight Robinson worked out for the most part.

Edited November 12, 2021 by capt_oats

[YassinMoutaouakil]

56 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

Missed this article at the time during the summer but @Yenitit's post in the Dundee thread about looking at managers from abroad put me in mind of Simo.

I see his currently club KuPS are 2nd in the Finnish league just now.

Kind of feels like the timings just been slightly off when he's been in for the job previously. We were in free-fall when he interviewed post-McGhee and in hindsight Robinson worked out for the most part.

I'm not old enough to remember him as a player but I feel a wee bit bad for the guy tbh, I think we should just give him the job next it comes up out of politeness.

[Doctor Manhattan]

1 hour ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

I'm not old enough to remember him as a player but I feel a wee bit bad for the guy tbh, I think we should just give him the job next it comes up out of politeness.

I sometimes forget that some of you lot are mere babes until I see a statement like this. 1996 seems like yesterday to me. 

In similar vein, I always feel a twinge of whatever the opposite of schadenfreude is (gluckschmerz?) every time Luc Nijholt pops his optimistic head over the parapet. At least he got a cup winner's medal out of us, though, so it's not like we owe him anything.