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Really good summary from Andy Paterson on Steelmen Online from last night’s AGM. Some really interesting points made over the night. In particular around Hastie / Cadden compensation and fact that Polworth / Gallagher / Seedorf all knocked back better offers to come to Fir Park.  
 

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14 minutes ago, Pettigrew said:

Really good summary from Andy Paterson on Steelmen Online from last night’s AGM. Some really interesting points made over the night. In particular around Hastie / Cadden compensation and fact that Polworth / Gallagher / Seedorf all knocked back better offers to come to Fir Park.  
 

Assume we'd be the team who offered Gallagher better terms, ties in with us spending more these days too.

Still some of our fans who genuinely believe we're spending Hamilton/Livingston level wages though.

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5 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Assume we'd be the team who offered Gallagher better terms, ties in with us spending more these days too.

Still some of our fans who genuinely believe we're spending Hamilton/Livingston level wages though.

Probably. Robinson also mentioned he’d recently failed to entice someone on a pre contract agreement from a team who were at the time at the bottom of the league - I assumed that must have been a St Johnstone player. 

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Just now, Pettigrew said:

Probably. Robinson also mentioned he’d recently failed to entice someone on a pre contract agreement from a team who were at the time at the bottom of the league - I assumed that must have been a St Johnstone player. 

Was that this season?

Rumours abound that half the league are trying to sign Matty Kennedy, Aberdeen included.

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1 minute ago, RandomGuy. said:

Was that this season?

Rumours abound that half the league are trying to sign Matty Kennedy, Aberdeen included.

I was at the AGM - I think his point was that whoever the player was (and it had just happened), we had been hugely outbid by a team that was similar/smaller in size to us. It was giving context to the fact that we are the third lowest payers in the league even with the expanded budget this year. 

And the Gallacher thing was definitely St Johnstone as he said "you may have read about it in the press" with a wry smile :)

He was also very diplomatic about Casper Sloth when asked (someone stole my question :)- but the message was basically that he has been fit but not good enough to dislodge those ahead of him.

 

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I had intended to head along last night but got caught up at the last minute.

Anyway apologies to Andy_P for the blatant C&P job but his summary over on Steelmen is good reading (and he's consistently one of the best posters over there).

Sounds like a fairly positive position all in.

Spoiler

AGM time again.  As ever lots of good discussion and info gleaned. Quite a long one this year as things got quite detailed on one or two points. 

Jim McMahon spoke of as positive a situation in a while. A "normal" situation. At worst case the club are in a position to finish tenth, have no player sales, have no cup runs and be able to knock back bids and still be able to cope with a loss for a year or so. 

Happily things are much more rosy than that the worst case next year will be a cash neutral position. 

The importance of staying up is the key risk going forward. Dundee Utd and their lost millions were cited but later Alan Burrows spoke of the potential to come in the form of increased TV revenue and the fall out from the new UEFA competition and through solidarity payments. The phrase transformational was used. 

There may also be consequences to domestic football to accommodate the changing shape of European football with potentially less domestic top flight league fans and no cup replays some possible outcomes. 

Looking ahead the club are keen to do something to improve training facilities with Stephen Robinson mentioning plans and ideas that had been considered. 

The club still want to get to a safe point where they have two "bad seasons" worth of finance  to cover them for eventualities although they acknowledge the stadium still remains something that could unexpectedly eat into finances. 

Well Society input amounts to around £180k a year currently. 

On David Turnbull the club turned numerous bids until the point was reached where they felt it irresponsible not to accept the offer from Celtic knowing how much that could set the club up. They believe it was right to accept and they got the best deal. 

No timescales for his return but seeing a specialist to step things up further and he will go to Tenerife on the break. 

Positive talks about extending his contract between player, agent and club. Hopefully good news soon. No reason why he can't return to previous levels. Robinson quipped he was never fast to begin with so even if he does lose pace... 

Budget was increased after review over last year but still second/third lowest in league. Robinson knows the parameters and what the club is about. 

Gallagher, Seedorf and Polworth all knocked back better terms to come. Club have gained a rep for providing a platform to improve and develop players for next career move. 

Potential for one outgoing and one or two arrivals at the break. 

Investment made in staff too. Conscious that vultures swooping on staff as well as players. 

Hastie situation resolved amicably with a sell on included. Cadden not so. Anticipated to run for some time yet. An example given of Kidderminster who believed they were entitled to a portion of Marvin Johnson's sell on from Oxford two years ago. 

Dundee likely to £15/£10/£5 not confirmed but they seem to have talked around Dundee who wanted to charge more. 

Sloth was raised. Answer simply that not doing enough to get ahead of others to get in the team. Surprised at Manzinga progress not anticipated to be making in roads as early. 

Some youngsters nearly ready for inclusion but stressed players are ready at different stages. Some will be in and out at different stages. 

Banner incidents at both Hearts and Rangers games discussed. 

Games may be played during Qatar World Cup after Group stages concluded. Winter break likely to be brought forward to coincide with groups. 

One or two bits more to follow in due course...

There are always one or two things that are mentioned on the night that I'm a bit hesitant at putting out and I wasn't sure if it was appropriate to mention the Hastie fee but since it's out there already it was quite interesting to hear how they came to that figure to avoid a tribunal.  Effectively Rangers took the position of a "cross border club" and the sum was reached as if we were dealing with "Carlisle" as was used as the example . I thought it interesting that despite widespread belief that they were playing hardball the deal was concluded early enough that the fee went in the accounts for this year that were concluded on 31st May.

Definitely Ross County have a higher budget. Robinson referenced that in discussing the Cup game last season where he said they were a top flight club in all but name.  He went on to say that a friendly due before the Cup game fell through which he believed had a big impact on our display in that game.  They will ensure they have something in place ahead of Dundee.  He insisted though the trip away was incredibly beneficial and quoted stats about how well we have done after these breaks.  Robinson also mentioned the use of contacts within the squad to take advantage of facilities at very favourable terms in both Tenerife and Northern Ireland.

I'll carry on from here about the other couple of bits of interest...

On the Bois Hearts banner thing the club acknowledge it could have been handled better and didn't appreciate the size of the banner and that this should have been checked out prior to immediately before the game.  Alan Burrows mentioned a meeting on the Sunday with the inference about mending fences.

On Rangers, as has been suggested by another poster on the game thread, the authorities noting the position of the offending banners over the scoreboard and the potential for something to get out of hand stood back.  They will review options for their next visit.  On the missiles incident Alan Burrows gave an excellent response in comparison to a question about considering shutting the Bois sections (even temporarily) where he explained a preference that if an individual is out of line, it will be the individual who is punished and not the whole section 99.9% of whom may well have behaved perfectly well.  Robinson also added that the support from the Bois area is valued and far from shutting the section he wants more people there as he knows how much the players get from that backing.

The club however are fully aware they need to handle the missile incident appropriately and also be very clearly seen to be handling it appropriately.

 

Edited by capt_oats
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30 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

Sounds like a fairly positive position all in.

I think it was generally positive (although someone gave the board a 40 minute grilling on the minutiae of the accounts) - but there was a lot of realism too and if anything, they made less of a big deal about being debt free than they deserved to. I got the impression that the Board don't want the message to be "we're debt free, everything is perfect". Effectively, instead of being one bad season from financial trouble, we are nearer to two (as we will effectively break even this financial year, a very positive thing in itself), which is a step forward but we don't have enough cash in reserve yet. 

I was interested to hear that they are considering the "Les" model to fund a proper training ground - where someone would stump up the capital for the build and be repaid via a percentage of transfer fees/profits. I'm not sure if that is a go-er but it is an interesting idea given that we have no obvious way, short of a huge transfer fee coming in to fund big capital projects.  

On the football side, the mention of "one out" soon after a bit of chat about the bold Casper was interesting. You would assume that he was on his way but I guess we couldn't rule out Carson going either. The "two in" part was interesting too - you would assume that was a replacement for the player leaving + one other who I would guess would be a striker but who knows... 

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Pretty much everything covered that I can think of from last night, as Swello says - the 89% of turnover query seemed to drag on forever! 

One interesting thing that Robinson noted - out with enjoying his trip to see the Lion King in the capital on Friday ... - on the "some youngsters being ready for inclusion" was using an example of a player which he put in too soon, and it ended up ruining him (or words that that effect). He never referenced a name, but I took it to be Adam Livingstone?

When you consider the young players that Robinson has brought into the team and made successes out of - Campbell, Turnbull etc, as well as the Scott's, Maguire's that are very much still being integrated into first team football, the only one I could think of that hasn't worked out was Livingstone.. 

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He said something similar on the Longer Listen podcast and I assumed it was David Ferguson. 

He got chucked in at right back for that must win midweek game at Fir Park against Killie and Jordan Jones tore him a new arsehole. Looked miles out his depth, got hooked for Lionel before half time and was never seen again. 

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6 minutes ago, Casagolda said:

He said something similar on the Longer Listen podcast and I assumed it was David Ferguson. 

He got chucked in at right back for that must win midweek game at Fir Park against Killie and Jordan Jones tore him a new arsehole. Looked miles out his depth, got hooked for Lionel before half time and was never seen again. 

On the Longer Listen I definitely took it to be David Ferguson he was talking about. Again, he didn't mention the name but the circumstances he described pointed to that Killie game.

Edited by capt_oats
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Didn't catch the Longer Listen podcast, apologies Andy, and had completely forgotten about Ferguson/that Killie game being a Robinson game. Definitely makes sense!

My basis for Livingstone was the Celtic game he came on as a sub for last season IIRC? Where he'd played reserve football a day or two before, and got sub-subbed. Wasn't seen much after that. 

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27 minutes ago, Casagolda said:

He got chucked in at right back for that must win midweek game at Fir Park against Killie and Jordan Jones tore him a new arsehole. Looked miles out his depth, got hooked for Lionel before half time and was never seen again. 

I've rarely felt more sorry for a player than I did that night - and it's interesting that it clearly plays on Robinson's mind after that much time. 

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He got half an hour against Accies on Tom Aldred day and ran down the clock against St. Mirren post-split after that.

I guess being able to work out that a standout in the 20s isn't ready for the first team is where a professional coach earns their salt. I couldn't fathom why we gave him a new contract this season when he would be behind Carroll, Tait, Dunne and perhaps even Ilic in the pecking order for left-back, to then send him out on loan for the duration of his contract. The fact he didn't even get a single minute in the league cup group section further affirmed that. You could understand if he was 17 or 18, but not 21. He's only played twice in the league for Morton since going there too.

On the plus side, it now seems that we are producing players that are capable of commanding a place in the team. For years our youth system worried me when but for limited exceptions, we were only producing also-rans and fringe players. Hastie, Turnbull, Campbell and Scott all coming in, starting games and having a lasting impact has been refreshing. We've not had as many at once since the Gannon era I'd say, where at times it felt like he was just chucking players in for the sake of it.

I now trust players will get their pathway to the first team when they are ready, but on the flip-side to that, I still always get slightly annoyed to see someone like Casper Sloth both costing us a first-team wage and potentially pushing Jamie Semple down the pecking order. I reckon we'll see him go in January though and even with that, I wouldn't be against sending Semple out on loan for the second half of the season.

 

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It was also mentioned on SO that talks regarding a new deal for David Turnbull were looking positive between player, agent and club. Which although doesn't delay the inevitable gives us a small cushion that we don't need to rush into anything and end up selling him for anything we can get this summer before pre contracts come into play in January, just a one year extension you would have to imagine?

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27 minutes ago, crazylegsjoe said:

I still always get slightly annoyed to see someone like Casper Sloth both costing us a first-team wage and potentially pushing Jamie Semple down the pecking order

In Robinson's chat about Sloth, he explicitly made the point that he was not prepared to put Semple behind Sloth just because of the latter's pedigree/seniority - and to be fair, the evidence for that is clear as Sloth hasn't even made the bench in the league AFAIK. 

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Only once v Celtic away, but I think that day we were scraping the barrel and it was just whatever 18 fit bodies we had made up the squad.

We have a lot of options in centre midfield and given we've signed O'Hara and at one point Turnbull might be back, that would push them both further down the pecking order. A lot of competition, especially considering it's been the area where selection has been most consistent so far.

Sloth punted and Semple on loan in the second part of the season would be something I'd get behind.

I reckon the club and Carson would be happy for him to move on in January as well. It was probably only expected that we paid two first-pick goalkeepers for a maximum of six months, but the circumstances have been ones you just couldn't predict. At 31, he'll want to get back playing football and I don't think any of us would begrudge him that and I don't think Gillespie deserves to be ousted either. That said, I don't seem what the harm would have been in giving Carson the league cup against Annan when we had already qualified.

 

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1 hour ago, Swello said:

In Robinson's chat about Sloth, he explicitly made the point that he was not prepared to put Semple behind Sloth just because of the latter's pedigree/seniority - and to be fair, the evidence for that is clear as Sloth hasn't even made the bench in the league AFAIK. 

As @crazylegsjoe says he was on the bench at Parkhead but the point pretty much stands.

There may have been an element of arse-covering when he was speaking on the Longer Listen but I thought Robinson's point about how some signings may not have worked out but there weren't any that he wouldn't have signed is something that made sense (to a degree). His suggestion that having Bigi in the squad pushed Turnbull to be a better player in order to get into the side is something I can understand.

It's around 21:27 on the podcast:

Quote

"It's a mentality, you can have all the ability in the world but if their mentality is they're not willing to work - and that's the hardest bit to find out because I've signed players  and of course we've made mistakes at the level that we're working at, of course we have but I would never not sign any of the players I've signed. Some of them haven't worked and some of them have been mistakes in hindsight but based on have they got pace or have they got a certain quality I think "yeah, that's going to be good for Motherwell Football Club. That's going to fit in to what we do".
What you can't do is give is drive and mentality. And it's hard to figure that out. You can speak to people and they say "Yes he's got that, he's got this" and usually we've got it more right than we've got wrong in terms of that. And there's a couple that I've signed that I think "would I sign them again? Of course - tremendous ability, played at incredible levels, played international football but if they don't have the drive and desire to be a footballer...because I judge them when they come in, I judge them like my 18 year olds. So if they're no better than the 18 year olds coming through, I'll play the 18 year old and sometimes that makes my younger players better.
To use David as example, I signed Bigi and I love Bigi, he's a great boy, good player but it pushed David Turnbull to a different level so sometimes people thing signings don't work but actually they work for other players to become better as well"  

Initially when I heard that my first thought was McCormack but then looking at Sloth you've got a player who's got caps for Denmark, signed for Leeds, was playing in the top flight in Denmark before we signed him. On paper it's hard to argue and equally I don't think anyone would have anticipated the consistency we've got from Polworth and Donnelly in the midfield this season when we brought the bold Casper in.

Edited by capt_oats
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