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I don’t think it’s necessarily revisionism, I posted this for example during his purple patch before he was even linked with a move to Ibrox- 

On 08/02/2019 at 11:12, Casagolda said:

The boy scored 3 goals in 23 games for Alloa and 2 of them were against Elgin City in the Cup. As high hopes for him as he had, I doubt even Robinson was expecting him to hit 4 goals in his first 5 games back including a couple of goal of the season contenders. 

In an alternate reality, Frear never gets injured before the Hibs game and he’s probably still coming off our bench as an impact sub. He’d probably bite our hand off for a new contract as well. As such his sudden burst onto the scene has drawn a lot of attention and have tilted things in his favour, fair play to him if he’s trying to use it to his advantage.

Hopefully we get it sorted soon as he looks a real talent. Athough, I’d like to see him perform at this level for a bit longer before we get carried away. I have no doubt he’ll see himself become a marked man in the coming weeks, it’ll be interesting to see how he deals with both that and the better level of opposition.

You have to say, the answer to the part in bold is not particularly well. He’s got 2 goals and 0 assists in his last 8 games and I’d struggle to name you a performance in any of those matches that I saw where he made a real impact. 

It’s not even just Hastie though, look at Ariyibi. Absolutely destroyed Accies last month, they had him sussed on Saturday, as has just about every other team since. 

Look at the way Rangers pinpointed and pressed Gorrin high up the park to stop us playing- considerably his worst performance in 2019. 

Truth is, nothing stays hidden in this league for long. You play each other that often, teams quickly work you out and identify ways to stop you. That’s true of Hastie as it is Ariyibi, Gorrin etc and true of us as a whole. We won our first 5 league games of 2019, we’ve won 2 in 8 since with the better teams(and managers) in the league in particular having our number.

I don’t think anyone would argue that Hastie is a talent who played a huge part in turning our season around. He however, like the the whole team really, benefited from being an unknown quantity and has struggled to make the same impact in recent months. 

I don’t blame him for taking the money or the club for being happy with cashing in on him now. It is what is, everyone gets something out of the deal. Only really time will tell though who got the best deal out of it. 

Edited by Casagolda
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With the money on offer from Rangers, I can see why Hastie has not been able to turn it down.

I don't see this being a good move from a footballing point of view, however.  I just can't see him getting near the first team on a regular basis.  You'll have Candeias, Jones & Murphy who are all considerably better than him.  You could even argue Middleton is ahead of him given he's had 12 months at Rangers, including European experience.  Given it's likely they'll also bring in a replacement for Kent, there will be five wide players ahead of him for two spots.  Is he going to progress over the next 12-18 months playing Reserve football?

Fans of teams like Motherwell have seen this kind of move loads of times before, hence the reaction from the majority that he's almost pissing his career away before it's properly started.  Every chance he'll end up out on loan to Fleetwood or Blackpool in a year or so, never to be spoken of again.  Still, he'll be a rich young guy so there's always that. 

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Does anyone know the rules regarding compensation between two Scottish clubs? Aberdeen tried to negotiate down the fee for Lewis Ferguson from Accies and it went to a tribunal. How near did  the fee eventually get to Accies valuation?

It is certain that Sevco will do everything possible to get the compensation down as low as possible and I wouldn't trust any SPL/SFA body to come  down on our  side. 

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10 hours ago, capt_oats said:

Ultimately though be best (and most sensible) way to frame this is against the likes of McCormack, Murphy, Reynolds and Hutchinson and the fact that we received less for them combined than we're quoting in compensation for Hastie.

This is why I'm torn on Cadden signing a new deal. I definitely think he'll have a lot to offer in our new style, but like those players you mention, if he does stay, I can see him signing a one-year deal and leaving either for a pittance in January or nothing next summer. Part of me thinks the compensation we'd get for him just now would serve us better in the long run.

Regarding Hastie, I'm just glad the saga is at an end. At the beginning, I was annoyed about the prospect of him leaving, but the long and short of it is that had Frear not picked up a knock against Ross County, he wouldn't have exploded in to the first team. Talking about it as a sliding doors moment, it wouldn't be too bizarre to suggest that the knock Frear got that day has cost us both him and Hastie for next season.

Frear could've had a run of games, done well and signed a new deal as a first team player, rather than probably being reluctant after another six months on the bench and Hastie could have been an impact sub here and there and have signed the same deal that James Scott has signed.

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9 minutes ago, neildrake said:

Does anyone know the rules regarding compensation between two Scottish clubs? Aberdeen tried to negotiate down the fee for Lewis Ferguson from Accies and it went to a tribunal. How near did  the fee eventually get to Accies valuation?

It is certain that Sevco will do everything possible to get the compensation down as low as possible and I wouldn't trust any SPL/SFA body to come  down on our  side. 

AFAIK, it's set FIFA valuations, so it's decided on length of time with club, contract value, appearances, potential etc and not set by the national body.

Hamilton got £230k but asked for something ridiculous like £800k.  Hastie has been at Motherwell a lot longer than Ferguson was at Accies and they've played a similar amount of first team games prior to the move.

We're looking at £250k minimum and up to about £400k. 

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46 minutes ago, neildrake said:

Does anyone know the rules regarding compensation between two Scottish clubs? Aberdeen tried to negotiate down the fee for Lewis Ferguson from Accies and it went to a tribunal. How near did  the fee eventually get to Accies valuation?

It is certain that Sevco will do everything possible to get the compensation down as low as possible and I wouldn't trust any SPL/SFA body to come  down on our  side. 

As @Desp says it's set by FIFA guidelines. We also have precedents here with Erwin going to Leeds and Hall going to Brighton for which we received development compensation (£500k and £210k respectively).

The relevant section of the SPFL rules are pages 55-61 here.

I've quoted the key parts below:

Quote

F7 If, after the expiry of the term of his Contract of Service a Professional Player, to whom an offer in terms of Rules F5 and F6 has been made which is not accepted by him, is Registered for a new Club in circumstances where Rule F3 applies, then that new Club shall be liable to pay Compensation to the Player's former Club

F8 If Clubs are unable to reach agreement on the amount of Compensation payable then either of the Clubs concerned or the Board shall have the right, at any time, to have any Compensation payable, if any, determined by a Compensation Tribunal.

F9 In the event of the two Clubs concerned not reaching agreement on the amount of any Compensation payable, the new Club must, on the date of Scottish FA Registration or, if later, on the date of any first offer of Compensation, pay to the Player's former Club at least 50% of the highest amount offered or, as the case may be, offered, plus VAT at the standard rate. All offers of Compensation shall be in writing and shall be copied to the Secretary by recorded delivery post when they are sent to the Player’s former Club. In the event that the amount of Compensation ordered to be paid by a Compensation Tribunal is less than the amount previously paid in terms of this Rule F9 or if no Compensation is ordered to be so paid then the Club which has received such payment shall be liable to forthwith repay as a debt the amount overpaid or, where no payment is so ordered to be paid, the amount paid, to the Club which made such payment.

If it goes to tribunal (as the Accies/Aberdeen/Ferguson deal did) this is what's relevant.

Quote

F22 The criteria are:-

F22.1 the age of the Player;
F22.2 the amount of any transfer fee or Compensation paid by the Club losing the player’s Scottish FA Registration when acquiring the Scottish FA Registration of the Player;
F22.3 the length of time during which the Club losing the player’s Scottish FA Registration held the Scottish FA Registration of the Player;
F22.4 the terms of the new contract offered to the Player by each of the Clubs;
F22.5 the Player’s playing record in club and international team appearances; and,
F22.6 substantiated interest shown by other clubs in acquiring the services of the Player.

Hastie's been at Motherwell for 10 years, Ferguson was at Accies for 5.

One thing I'm not sure of is whether they factor in games played as part of Development Loans or if it's solely first team appearances for the parent club.

In Hastie's case that would give him another 55 games (albeit at a lower level) which would make things slightly different to Ferguson's 14 games for Accies.

You then look at the other clubs he's been linked with recently and ask how much of those were real examples of 'substantiated interest'.

Edited by capt_oats
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If the number of games played is a factor then it might  make sense to play him in the next four games even if it's only  for a few minutes .  What  I still don't understand is that if things are set down clearly why could Aberdeen think they could  get away with a derisory offer of 80k?

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1 minute ago, neildrake said:

If the number of games played is a factor then it might  make sense to play him in the next four games even if it's only  for a few minutes .  What  I still don't understand is that if things are set down clearly why could Aberdeen think they could  get away with a derisory offer of 80k?

Going to assume they played their hand assuming the board at Hamilton would have absolutely no idea about how the tribunal thing would work.

Which is a fair assumption, to be fair to them...

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As for Hastie, if it is confirmed this week he's signed a PCA at Rangers, then get him in the stand for the last four games.

I have no issues with players moving on, that's part of the game.  However, I'd assume every other player moving on from us this summer won't be joining another Scottish Premiership team.  Give the jersey to Frear or one of the youngsters.

Cadden, for example, has earned the right to a move, a better move.  Motherwell have put plenty into developing him but he's given us the best part of five years and 100+ appearances - more than enough to repay us.  The likes of Gorrin & Main, plus the loans of Ariyibi & Aldred, we knew the deal with them.  Short term contracts, both parties get something out of it and we move on.   

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7 hours ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

Tbh, people on here are about a thousand times more reasonable than Motherwell fans in general, but I think there's still some sour grapes leading to a lot of revisionism around Hastie. 

In the last four months , he's scored as many league goals as Chris Cadden managed in 111 games, Marvin Johnson in 50 odd, and as many as Lionel scored in all but one of his seasons. 

I've pretty much made my peace with him leaving and this isn't meant to have a dig at the club for losing him- that's been done to the death already- but folk acting like Hastie hasn't been the second or third most important part in our recent revival is bizarre to me.

In a way you are correct. As been said though it has just got so boring & left most folk uninterested.

I think we like to think we are but we're not.

Edited by Busta Nut
The bold bit
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2 hours ago, crazylegsjoe said:

This is why I'm torn on Cadden signing a new deal. I definitely think he'll have a lot to offer in our new style, but like those players you mention, if he does stay, I can see him signing a one-year deal and leaving either for a pittance in January or nothing next summer. Part of me thinks the compensation we'd get for him just now would serve us better in the long run.

That is largely where I am with Cadden. The other thing as I realise @Desp has just mentioned is he's given us close to 140 games which seems a fair return (it'd have been far more had it not been a couple of injuries this season and last). He's been unfortunate in the sense that the 352 we settled on didn't really get the best out of him so while 2 cup finals was good for the team on an individual level his form and development stalled.

For me it just feels like a natural juncture for him to move on and progress his career. 

Sibbald is a good example of compensation being restrictive. IIRC Falkirk were going to be due something like £300k, in the end no one was willing to shell that out on him so he ended up signing a year extension and walking on a free. I'm certain that's an outcome the club want to avoid.

Right now, if there are options on the table from teams who'd be willing to pony up the cash then to me that seems the best outcome for everyone. I noticed Burrows saying on Twitter that while we've offered Cadden a longer term deal he'll have "more than a few" options.

Edited by capt_oats
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2 minutes ago, Busta Nut said:

Think the club will have made Cadden an offer similar to his existing one. If he signs we get a chance to punt him. If not we get a dev fee. Just a guess.

The development fee for Cadden is going to be around £300K if my glance at a few articles is correct.

Lewis Ferguson was £200k and Cadden has got more years with us and is a full scotland international.

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Just now, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

The development fee for Cadden is going to be around £300K if my glance at a few articles is correct.

Lewis Ferguson was £200k and Cadden has got more years with us and is a full scotland international.

IF, he was to hang about I wouldn't be surprised to see him go for £200k and a sell on at Crimbo.

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12 minutes ago, Busta Nut said:

Think the club will have made Cadden an offer similar to his existing one. If he signs we get a chance to punt him. If not we get a dev fee. Just a guess.

Hopefully we get the development fee (think it's about half a million?) as I think that would be more than we'd get in a transfer fee.

I mean, l like Cadden, I really do.  He's given his some really good performances over the years but let's look at this subjectively.  I don't think anyone would argue his progress has stalled over the last 12-18 months and would probably benefit from a change of scenery.  He's not really one for picking out a pass to split a defence (like a Turnbull or Gorrin).  He's not one who'll put the foot in defensively (like a Gorrin or Campbell) and he's not really one for a bit of skill to beat a man (like Ariyibi or Frear).  His goal return is also poor as his finishing isn't the best.

For me, he's built for mid-table English League One level where they look for a load of athletes to run about chasing long ball after long ball.  Hopefully someone like Peterborough, Oxford or Fleetwood decide to take another punt on a SPFL Premiership player.

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They had a chat about Cadden on one of the Terrace TV programs. They got the stalled a bit at RWB stuff right but when it came to describing him as a player I wasn't sure they'd really seen much of him since 2016.

I too like Cadds and I'd love to see him get a wee run out at the end of the season. Even if he leaves.

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4 minutes ago, Desp said:

Hopefully we get the development fee (think it's about half a million?) as I think that would be more than we'd get in a transfer fee.

I mean, l like Cadden, I really do.  He's given his some really good performances over the years but let's look at this subjectively.  I don't think anyone would argue his progress has stalled over the last 12-18 months and would probably benefit from a change of scenery.  He's not really one for picking out a pass to split a defence (like a Turnbull or Gorrin).  He's not one who'll put the foot in defensively (like a Gorrin or Campbell) and he's not really one for a bit of skill to beat a man (like Ariyibi or Frear).  His goal return is also poor as his finishing isn't the best.

For me, he's built for mid-table English League One level where they look for a load of athletes to run about chasing long ball after long ball.  Hopefully someone like Peterborough, Oxford or Fleetwood decide to take another punt on a SPFL Premiership player.

£600k was the figure put on the compensation when Hearts offered £100k for him. Given He's played almost 10x as many games as Lewis Ferguson had for Accies and has been at the club longer than Hastie (who we're quoting £400k for) I'd say the £600k figure sounds proportionate.

Where it gets problematic is whether anyone's willing to pay that (see the situation I mentioned earlier with Sibbald and Falkirk).

Quote

"When a boy can walk out of a club when his contract runs out for £600,000 compensation, the offer of £100,000, well, let’s just say, we’ll move on very quickly because it’s nowhere near what we would consider."

The Sun

We apparently knocked back £400k from Oxford a while back.

I think it really depends on who's actually interested tbh. Other than Hearts I've not really seen him linked with many teams since last summer where Wigan and Millwall were mentioned.

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