Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[Neil86]

I kind of thought about that as well, give him a run out at fir park against st johnstone or Livi last day of the season, be a good send off for a motherwell fan running out at fir park before he bags us 400k. 

[Luke92]

On the transfer front..

Not really seen a lot of Polworth but statistically he looks a very good creative get for us. I've often bemoaned our lack of activity in the Scottish market so it is good to see us picking a couple of good acquisations (on paper) Robinson recently alluded to the fact that wages even at the bottom tier of English football are becoming hard to compete with so it wouldn't surprise me if we shift focus slightly in terms of recruitment.

Another factor is perhaps previously our playing style fit better with the Conf/League 2 rectruitment type. Players often lacking in technical ability but with good physical attributes. Now that we are playing better football it wouldn't surprise me if we start to rectruit more domestically and from abroad (in the mould of Rodriguez) Obviously we aren't playing 'total football' but a lot of the boys who done a job in the past e.g Bowman, Johnson maybe don't fit into our playing style as much as they once did.

We are in the business of offering players 2 years max at the moment due to financial reasons so I would suggest that Championship teams are going to be offering even less than that. Hopefully this gives us the opportunity to exploit this strategy in a similar manner to other clubs (with us)  I'm not entirely on board with Burrows explanation, I think we should always have exceptions to the rule. Taking Hastie for example if we had offered him the same terms at the start of the season I would suggest he would have accepted. Shelling out another year of £300p seems worthwhile for the security it would offer. Obviously we can't do this with everyone but to me if we have an academy we should have atleast our 2/3 top prospects tied down to longer terms deal so that we are maximising profits from our investment Taking Turnbull for example, had he not chosen to stay I would suggest we would be losing out on a potential record transfer fee down the road.

[Neil86]

was there not murmers at the time though that Jake Hastie wasn't actually one of the top prospects, Turnbull Maguire and Scott were ahead of him in that regards? I recall seeing someone say that James Scott was offered better terms than Hastie. All rumours at the end of the day but maybe we have indeed got our 3 brightest prospects tied down and we as fans just haven't seen all 3 yet.

[Waspie]

3 hours ago, capt_oats said:

Fair fucks to 'Flow. That's a decent exercise in expectations management, not just in relation to Hastie either. Just generally.

Seems weird to me he's having to explain as I've always thought the reasoning behind our recent approach to contract offers to Academy players was obvious. Apparently not, it was just a massive co-incidence that all those contracts expired just before the cut off for Development Compensation. 

Looking at it, it seems we offer a 2 year deal from 17-19 to see how they develop, then if they're around the first team they get a 2-3 year deal (depending on when their birthday falls) to take them up to 22 and make sure that worst case we're still covered by compensation. The fact we got more for Lee Erwin than we did for Murphy, Reynolds and Hutchinson combined pretty much vindicates that.

The fact we gave Allan Campbell a 4 year deal (and a 3.5 year deal for James Scott) means I'd hope we'll make exceptions now and again but it becomes a question of what the player is willing to sign. It needs buy in from the player, we got it from Turnbull but clearly Hastie has options on the table that are turning his head. Which is understandable since as 'Flow says he was doing alright at Alloa (and Airdrie) but nothing suggested teams would be knocking his door down.

Hastie could just have easily gone the way of Dom Thomas, Dylan Mackin, Ross MacLean, Craig Moore, Luke Watt, David Ferguson et al at the start of the season (when lots of folk now seem to be saying we should have handed him a 10 year deal and forced him to sign it). Tbh, he still could.

The whole Hastie to Rangers thing is utterly fucking tedious but equally chucking the guts of £400k at us (along with whatever ludicrous wage package they're offering) for a 20 year old off the back of 12 starts for Motherwell is as on brand a move for Sevco as you get.

Ultimately though, if a team is willing to take a punt of that sort of money on a player at this stage of his development then they're going to be able to offer better terms than we can. So it's a case of offering the best deal we can and leaving it up to the player, if they're on board then great. If they're not then ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

I don't know the details of McKinstry moving to Leeds but it's probably worth making the distinction that he was/is under contract until 2020 (as opposed to Hastie's contract expiring) so it's a case of Leeds swooping in and being willing to pay 6 figures for a 16 year old who has yet to play a first team game and has only just broken into our Reserves.

Just reading his comments in the Herald and would take issue with what he says. The suggestion that Hastie "wasn't pulling up any trees" at Alloa is just plain wrong. From the minute he played for us last summer it was obvious he was a real prospect. Only 19 and playing for a part-time club in a full-time league but he immediately emerged as a real threat on the flank. Don't see many young Scots with that combination of trickery, pace and power. Indeed, it was a source of real frustration that our daft decision to reduce the dimensions of our pitch limited the effectiveness of Jake in home games.

Burrows says he is explaining why Hastie wasn't signed up until 2024, but surely you only really needed to have given him another year last summer to keep him sorted until 2020 and buy yourself more time? Doubt he would have been after huge terms at that point. He had already had a promising spell at Airdrie in League 1 then got off to a flier with Alloa in the Championship, all before his 20th birthday. "Waiting to see how he fared in the Premiership" in the final few months of his contract was a serious error of judgement.

[well fan for life]

26 minutes ago, Waspie said:

Just reading his comments in the Herald and would take issue with what he says. The suggestion that Hastie "wasn't pulling up any trees" at Alloa is just plain wrong. From the minute he played for us last summer it was obvious he was a real prospect. Only 19 and playing for a part-time club in a full-time league but he immediately emerged as a real threat on the flank. Don't see many young Scots with that combination of trickery, pace and power. Indeed, it was a source of real frustration that our daft decision to reduce the dimensions of our pitch limited the effectiveness of Jake in home games.

Burrows says he is explaining why Hastie wasn't signed up until 2024, but surely you only really needed to have given him another year last summer to keep him sorted until 2020 and buy yourself more time? Doubt he would have been after huge terms at that point. He had already had a promising spell at Airdrie in League 1 then got off to a flier with Alloa in the Championship, all before his 20th birthday. "Waiting to see how he fared in the Premiership" in the final few months of his contract was a serious error of judgement.

But to flip that around we stuck Luke Watt & Dom Thomas on long deals after ripping up the reserves league/successful loan spells and couldn't get rid of the c***s. 

I'm aware it seems like we've been lax in these kind of dealings but tbh Burrows seems to know what he's doing in this kind of thing. 

FWIW I am really, really, really fucking bored of the Hastie saga. I couldn't care less one way or the other at this point. 

 

[AndyRoss]

I'm pretty much done with this season in all honesty. Let's get these next three out the way and start to plan our jolly to Brechin in the Betfred group stages. 

[Desp]

1 minute ago, AndyRoss said:

I'm pretty much done with this season in all honesty. Let's get these next three out the way and start to plan our jolly to Brechin in the Betfred group stages. 

We wont play Brechin in the LC Groups. 

Still a North/South split as far as I know. 

[well fan for life]

2 minutes ago, AndyRoss said:

I'm pretty much done with this season in all honesty. Let's get these next three out the way and start to plan our jolly to Brechin in the Betfred group stages. 

Still going to Hamilton away, though? It's a good laugh intit.

[Waspie]

6 minutes ago, well fan for life said:

But to flip that around we stuck Luke Watt & Dom Thomas on long deals after ripping up the reserves league/successful loan spells and couldn't get rid of the c***s. 

I'm aware it seems like we've been lax in these kind of dealings but tbh Burrows seems to know what he's doing in this kind of thing. 

FWIW I am really, really, really fucking bored of the Hastie saga. I couldn't care less one way or the other at this point. 

 

But surely the point is that you didn't need to stick him on a long deal? A one year extension would have been enough to see how he got on in the Premier. If it didn't work out you only had him (presumably on low wages) for another year and the option of punting him on loan till it expired, and if it did you had more time to try and persuade him to stay or else in a much stronger position to sell. Given how well he was doing for us, at 19 and just a league below, I find it hard it to believe you didn't at least give yourselves the safety net of another year. 

Anyway, take your point about being bored of it. I will return to the Championship forum and wish you all the best for the rest of the season on my way. 

[AndyRoss]

14 minutes ago, Desp said:

We wont play Brechin in the LC Groups. 

Still a North/South split as far as I know. 

Tragic!

[AndyRoss]

13 minutes ago, well fan for life said:

Still going to Hamilton away, though? It's a good laugh intit.

Oh aye, obviously!

[well fan for life]

22 minutes ago, Desp said:

We wont play Brechin in the LC Groups. 

Still a North/South split as far as I know. 

Aw for f**k sake. 

I just want a fucking nonsense trip to somewhere out of the ordinary. 

Buckle in for Livingston & Clyde away.

20 minutes ago, Waspie said:

But surely the point is that you didn't need to stick him on a long deal? A one year extension would have been enough to see how he got on in the Premier. If it didn't work out you only had him (presumably on low wages) for another year and the option of punting him on loan till it expired, and if it did you had more time to try and persuade him to stay or else in a much stronger position to sell. Given how well he was doing for us, at 19 and just a league below, I find it hard it to believe you didn't at least give yourselves the safety net of another year. 

Anyway, take your point about being bored of it. I will return to the Championship forum and wish you all the best for the rest of the season on my way. 

I don't think anyone could have predicted the impact he was going to have when he came back, though. It's all well and good looking back on it now and saying we *should* have signed him but 1 goal in 20 odd appearances isn't exactly setting the place alight, even if his performances were good. 

To then come back and score 7 in 13 for us was probably a shock to everyone, himself included.

[Busta Nut]

1 hour ago, well fan for life said:

 

FWIW I am really, really, really fucking bored of the Hastie saga. I couldn't care less one way or the other at this point. 

 

Me anaw. I really couldn't care.

A guy from a Scottish fitba podcast contacted me on twitter to ask if I'd say a few things about Hastie. Although my reply of "I am working long, late hours this week" is true, I couldn't be bothered even thinking about Hastie. So I just bumped him off to @Jay and @AndyRoss .

[RiG]

16 hours ago, bunglebonce said:

Polworth is a far better player now than the one who was relegated with ICT.  A quality player who only has an eye for progressing play, he is always looking to open a defence and rarely wastes a pass when that’s not on. He does have a bit of dig about him but I’d want to see a workhorse beside him in a two or a three, ideally with Polworth the most advanced in a three.

Despite a ridiculous amount of assists I still don’t think Inverness have seen the best of him, because they don’t often play a striker who makes runs behind the defence.  

No idea if it was feasible or not but Well somehow got Moult back you could imagine Polworth setting him up for a lot of goals.

At ICT he normally has White playing with his back to goal in front of him rather than a Mckay type striker playing on the shoulder of the defender. He could, as you say, have had even more assists than he already does.

[Waspie]

1 hour ago, well fan for life said:

Aw for f**k sake. 

I just want a fucking nonsense trip to somewhere out of the ordinary. 

Buckle in for Livingston & Clyde away.

I don't think anyone could have predicted the impact he was going to have when he came back, though. It's all well and good looking back on it now and saying we *should* have signed him but 1 goal in 20 odd appearances isn't exactly setting the place alight, even if his performances were good. 

To then come back and score 7 in 13 for us was probably a shock to everyone, himself included.

I agree with that, couldn't have predicted he would make such an explosive impact. But his all round potential and form with us IMO certainly made at least one more year a no brainer. Anyway, this time I really will leave you all in peace. 

[capt_oats]

2 hours ago, well fan for life said:

But to flip that around we stuck Luke Watt & Dom Thomas on long deals after ripping up the reserves league/successful loan spells and couldn't get rid of the c***s. 

I'm aware it seems like we've been lax in these kind of dealings but tbh Burrows seems to know what he's doing in this kind of thing. 

FWIW I am really, really, really fucking bored of the Hastie saga. I couldn't care less one way or the other at this point. 

 

1 hour ago, well fan for life said:

I don't think anyone could have predicted the impact he was going to have when he came back, though. It's all well and good looking back on it now and saying we *should* have signed him but 1 goal in 20 odd appearances isn't exactly setting the place alight, even if his performances were good. 

To then come back and score 7 in 13 for us was probably a shock to everyone, himself included.

100% this. Particularly the whole being really bored with the saga thing. I realise I'm contributing to it by wring this post but it's actually at the point where it's just really fucking weird.

He seems to have been built up into being some sort of wunderkind while his performances since that initial spike have gone the other way.

There's no doubt there's a bit of face-saving going on at the moment but while we should absolutely be re-evaluating and learning from this in terms of when we're offering out deals equally (as far as I'm aware) there was f**k all mention of any interest from big clubs when Hastie was at Alloa. The whole thing is largely hindsight and revisionism.

The other thing that has kind of been overlooked is that he had an offer on the table in January at the same time as James Scott and Barry Maguire. That deal was on the table before he started against Hibs (Robinson mentioned it post-match). So that was before the hype started building and undermines this idea that he'd just have signed whatever we shoved under his nose before he started pinging in 30 yarders.

So far we've offered out contracts to 6 of our best young players. Turnbull, Scott, Maguire, Livingstone, Semple and of course Hastie. Only one hasn't signed. That's not a bad hit rate. We should definitely be learning from this experience and seeing what we can do better though.

Turnbull obviously took a fair bit of negotiation but that situation highlights how ridiculous the process is. In the summer his agent wanted him out on loan this season presumably because he didn't think he'd get games. Then after Robinson kb'd that and played him and he cemented his place in the team as our main #baller his agent starts playing hardball and is hawking him round left, right and centre.

Don't get me wrong, that's the game but fucking hell.

Hastie signed a 2.5 year deal back in 2016. Since then and coming back from Alloa he'd played precisely zero minutes of first team football for Motherwell. Waiting to see how he got on in the Premiership is presumably what was agreed by all parties before committing to any new contract.

38 minutes ago, RiG said:

No idea if it was feasible or not but Well somehow got Moult back you could imagine Polworth setting him up for a lot of goals.

At ICT he normally has White playing with his back to goal in front of him rather than a Mckay type striker playing on the shoulder of the defender. He could, as you say, have had even more assists than he already does.

Daft as it sounds given the number of goals he scored Moult was absolutely useless as a lone striker (there's not a chance he's coming back anyway).

There's a fair chance we'll have to entirely rebuild our forward line given pretty much all our forwards are out of contract. Danny Johnson's the only one we've got contracted and he's been benched since County papped us out the cup and has spent most of his time playing in the reserves. James Scott actually fits the bill as a #9 but he could do with a loan in the Championship.

Edited April 18, 2019 by capt_oats

[thisGRAEME]

2 hours ago, Waspie said:

But surely the point is that you didn't need to stick him on a long deal? A one year extension would have been enough to see how he got on in the Premier. If it didn't work out you only had him (presumably on low wages) for another year and the option of punting him on loan till it expired, and if it did you had more time to try and persuade him to stay or else in a much stronger position to sell. Given how well he was doing for us, at 19 and just a league below, I find it hard it to believe you didn't at least give yourselves the safety net of another year. 

Anyway, take your point about being bored of it. I will return to the Championship forum and wish you all the best for the rest of the season on my way. 

You've got a point, aye, but another year doesn't really change anything.

If he'd come back and done as well as he has, there's every chance his agent is angling for a move for him 'before he runs his contract down', which also leads to the similar ennui that we've collectively got over this whole thing. Only difference is it doesn't happen until the end of the season as we don't play Rangers after the split so they've no reason to bring it up..

Also, at risk of sounding like a patronising top flight fan; Up the Alloa. I hope your lads keep afloat this season and send some other dumplings down to the seaside league. 

Edited April 18, 2019 by thisGRAEME

[Al B]

Div Turnbull signed. With that in mind I dont care if one of the stands decides to leave and we do a Falkirk Stadium for the rest of time, let alone Jake Hastie.

#allaboutdiv

[YassinMoutaouakil]

I think the club are getting a lot less flack over Hastie because we lucked out in Turnbull signing on.  To me it's still a needlessly risky strategy to wait until prospects have tore the league apart for a few months before we offer them terms. It'd be fucking chaos if we had ended up losing both Turnbull and Hastie under FoC this summer.

[capt_oats]

6 hours ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

I think the club are getting a lot less flack over Hastie because we lucked out in Turnbull signing on.  To me it's still a needlessly risky strategy to wait until prospects have tore the league apart for a few months before we offer them terms. It'd be fucking chaos if we had ended up losing both Turnbull and Hastie under FoC this summer.

This is absolutely true and is fair comment.

I'd like to think this is something that's been covered as part of the "pathway review" that was undertaken. I'm fully on board with the principle of deals expiring while we're still protected by compensation but what we're doing before that probably needs looked at. For all Burrows is saying we don't hand out 4 year contracts any more, we've not long given James Scott a 3.5 year deal.

While it's not explicitly a 4 year deal, it's close enough. I imagine the point he's getting at is that we're not going to be dishing out 4 year deals as standard.

I'm loathe to jump in two footed as I don't know what we have/haven't discussed with player reps. Maybe we did speak to Turnbull's guy last season after he'd made a couple of appearances but they wanted to wait and see how things panned out. There's every chance there's been dialogue rather than it being a case of us just sitting on our hands waiting to batch renew.

Robinson was saying Div's agent wanted him to go out on loan this season so reading between the lines they weren't convinced he'd be getting much first team football. If that was the case then with a year still to run it's not a huge leap to think they may be lukewarm on another extension at that point (Hastie may well be in the same boat given he'd spent the season on loan at Airdrie).

Upshot is we could probably do with being a bit more proactive. The past couple of seasons under Robinson have been about stabilising and transition with fan ownership and the like but you'd hope that the #YoungMotherwell brand we've got going at the moment might allow us to get those players around the first team and make a decision while they've still got a couple of years to go rather than in their final year.

We're using the #YoungMotherwell angle to sell season tickets so it makes sense for us not to be seen getting mugged off and make sure we're treating our assets at that level in the same way we handled the Kipré, Tait and Dunne extensions last season. 

Also, our Reserves at the moment are pretty much our u18 side whose contracts end in 2020. Given we've seen Leeds come in and pick up McKinstry from the class of 18/19 there's probably an argument for getting stand outs at that level tied up. So if we've got development plans for Cornelius, McAlear and the like then now's probably a good time to be getting those players sorted out rather than waiting until this time next year.

Presumably there will be a new 19/20 intake announced in the summer who'll get 2 year deals.

Edited April 19, 2019 by capt_oats