Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[capt_oats]

4 minutes ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

Aye. Definitely. Sammon out.

What is that? He is startng tonight vs Celtic.

Fucking hell.

(see also Donnelly)

See, I'm taking Sammon starting as a fairly hefty fuckity-bye to Bowman tbh.

[thisGRAEME]

I'm absolutely delighted I'm on my sofa.

[Gianfranco]

Robinson had a right go at Adam Livingstone and Donnelly’s fitness levels in his interview. Didn’t they both play for the 20s/reserves on Monday?

[capt_oats]

Robinson had a right go at Adam Livingstone and Donnelly’s fitness levels in his interview. Didn’t they both play for the 20s/reserves on Monday?

Both played 45mins.

Tbf I thought he was ‘making a point’ about the fitness you need to play at this level. It comes across as quite harsh, especially in the context of the usual ‘talk about the positives’ narrative of the MFC TV post-match interviews.

[Swello]

I thought it was a fair comment - Livingstone had a really tough game tonight and I'm sure it was a bit of a rude awakening for him as he was (perhaps understandably) off the pace - so a wee verbal kick up the arse is fine...

I do think though that if he's had a game like that, that we need to persevere with him now as it won't get much harder than Celtic (and  just having a left back on the park was brilliant  )

[well fan for life]

13 hours ago, well fan for life said:

I'd said earlier in the thread that ATS is a weird one. The signing made a lot of sense in that he's an actual left back, he's played at this level before etc. but he's made of glass. We do shop in the market of guys trying to get their careers back on track but this one is looking like a step too far. Maybe not against Celtic but I'd be pretty keen to see Adam Livingstone get a run out against some of the teams around us in the league just so I could remember what a left back actually looks like. 

Well I got what I wished for and it was...ok...ish? He looked ok at times, picked up a stupid booking then looked like he was breathing out his arse just before he got taken off. I mean it was nice to see what an actual left back is like though. 

[Jim McLean's Ghost]

4 minutes ago, Swello said:

I thought it was a fair comment - Livingstone had a really tough game tonight and I'm sure it was a bit of a rude awakening for him as he was (perhaps understandably) off the pace - so a wee verbal kick up the arse is fine...

I do think though that if he's had a game like that, that we need to persevere with him now as it won't get much harder than Celtic (and  just having a left back on the park was brilliant  )

He really only got beat once. He had another one where he took too much time but he was fine overall especially after picking up an undeserved booking.

I don't think we played brilliant by any means but our best play was after we brought on Livingstone up to half time. There started to be a bit of link up play down the left. We definitely need more footballers in the side going to Tynecastle.

It is strange Livngstone wasn't in the squad on Saturday but played 45 minutes on Monday. It all worked out in the end with Main coming on for the goal but really in December no one should be playing for the reserves on a monday if they might be involved in a midweek game.

[capt_oats]

10 hours ago, Swello said:

I thought it was a fair comment - Livingstone had a really tough game tonight and I'm sure it was a bit of a rude awakening for him as he was (perhaps understandably) off the pace - so a wee verbal kick up the arse is fine...
I do think though that if he's had a game like that, that we need to persevere with him now as it won't get much harder than Celtic (and  just having a left back on the park was brilliant [emoji4] )

I think this (and Robinson’s wee boot up the arse in general) probably feeds into him talking publicly about changing his approach and moving on some of the squad players and promoting some of the u20s. It was notable that he referenced Campbell and Turnbull as being “first team players now”.

IIRC Craigan was talking in his “Coffee and Chat” bit about the level Turnbull had worked on his fitness and gains.

If that’s the direction Robinson’s going then tonight was a pretty extreme introduction for Livingstone. I know he’s had sub appearances before but I’d imagine there’s probably a difference in expected performance levels.

Given the u20s that have been referenced most are Livingstone, Maguire, Scott and Robinson explicitly name-checked Hastie in that interview then I’d guess there’s probably some indication of which “squad” players we might be trying to move on.

 

Edited December 6, 2018 by capt_oats

[YassinMoutaouakil]

30 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

IIRC Craigan was talking in his “Coffee and Chat” bit about the level Turnbull had worked on his fitness and gains.
 

 

Obviously there's extenuating circumstances given we were playing Celtic, so he's been asked to play a different role than he will be against other teams, but something that stuck out to me was a much more physical side of Turnbull's game. I've never really seen him flying into 50/50s and leaving the boot in to that extent before but he more than held his own.  Big fan of Stephen Robinson taking mercurial ballers under his wing and showing them how to kick people harder.

[thisGRAEME]

7 hours ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

Obviously there's extenuating circumstances given we were playing Celtic, so he's been asked to play a different role than he will be against other teams, but something that stuck out to me was a much more physical side of Turnbull's game. I've never really seen him flying into 50/50s and leaving the boot in to that extent before but he more than held his own.  Big fan of Stephen Robinson taking mercurial ballers under his wing and showing them how to kick people harder.

The foul that was given for Rose nudging at Christie before Turnbull just shouldered him off the ball was great, great stuff. 

[Swello]

8 hours ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

Obviously there's extenuating circumstances given we were playing Celtic, so he's been asked to play a different role than he will be against other teams, but something that stuck out to me was a much more physical side of Turnbull's game. I've never really seen him flying into 50/50s and leaving the boot in to that extent before but he more than held his own.  Big fan of Stephen Robinson taking mercurial ballers under his wing and showing them how to kick people harder.

I was actually impressed with the physical side of Turnball's game last night - he competed well in entirely un-Ross Forbes-like way

[BigTamMuller]

Hardly a surprise given Robinson was chatting about Jake Hastie being potentially involved when he returns from his loan. Bit of a shame however as I thought there was always something about him in any of his brief appearances, but he just never really got himself a proper run in the team. Be it injuries, or not quite having a nailed down position for him.

Interestingly though, it was Ray McKinnon who took him to Morton, and was quite keen to do so - Link - and now that he's at Falkirk it does make sense.

 Anyway, at least he'll get to link up with Petravicius again ...

[Luke92]

11 hours ago, Swello said:

I thought it was a fair comment - Livingstone had a really tough game tonight and I'm sure it was a bit of a rude awakening for him as he was (perhaps understandably) off the pace - so a wee verbal kick up the arse is fine...

To be honest I thought Robinson's comments were a bit OTT. Livingstone literally got flung in, he hasn't really featured for us to any great extent and it's a bit harsh to go through the boy publicly for his fitness. I understand the intent but it's important to point out that he played 45 minutes for the u20s on Monday... Not exactly the best preparation.

He didn't have the best time of it but I'm reluctant to make a judgement in a game like that.

[Casagolda]

To be fair to Robinson he's been getting pelters all season from a lot of fans(me included btw) for not giving the young players more of a chance, especially on the back of their Cup run. Tonight he put Livingstone on and he gave a fairly shaky performance before having to be subbed off again less than hour later with cramp.

I think he was just trying to make the point, to the viewer(s) as much as the boy himself, that there's more to being a professional footballer than simply having a bit of talent and it's the other things(that we as fans can't really see) that will probably determine whether they'll make it or not. That's why whenever he talks about Cadden, Campbell, Turnbull etc he always mentions how they handle and conduct themselves off the pitch as much as anything they do on it. He also had a go at Donnelly, one of his own signings this summer, for his fitness levels as well so it's as if he just singling out Livingstone. More like he was laying down a marker to those who are presumably unhappy cause they're not getting a game, the levels they have to reach etc.

As an aside, on a day where his summer business was getting panned, Gillespie and Johnson both proved their worth last night. Penalty save was a game changer from Gillespie and Johnson once again proving he is the natural goalscorer we've been crying out for- one half chance, one goal. 

 

Edited December 6, 2018 by Casagolda

[capt_oats]

1 hour ago, Casagolda said:

To be fair to Robinson he's been getting pelters all season from a lot of fans(me included btw) for not giving the young players more of a chance, especially on the back of their Cup run. Tonight he put Livingstone on and he gave a fairly shaky performance before having to be subbed off again less than hour later with cramp.

I think he was just trying to make the point, to the viewer(s) as much as the boy himself, that there's more to being a professional footballer than simply having a bit of talent and it's the other things(that we as fans can't really see) that will probably determine whether they'll make it or not. That's why whenever he talks about Cadden, Campbell, Turnbull etc he always mentions how they handle and conduct themselves off the pitch as much as anything they do on it. He also had a go at Donnelly, one of his own signings this summer, for his fitness levels as well so it's not as if he just singling out Livingstone. More like he was laying down a marker to those who are presumably unhappy cause they're not getting a game, the levels they have to reach etc.

As an aside, on a day where his summer business was getting panned, Gillespie and Johnson both proved their worth last night. Penalty save was a game changer from Gillespie and Johnson once again proving he is the natural goalscorer we've been crying out for- one half chance, one goal. 

100%.

It's not just Robinson either, if you listen to Craigan after every Reserve game he's reinforcing the same points about attitude and application off the pitch. It's clear (to me at least) that Robinson takes his cues from Craigan/McManus as to who's ready. Listening to Craigan's interview where he's tearing strips off his team after winning 6-1 on Monday then you can tell where they're coming from.

Robinson's comments may have been harsh but they weren't necessarily unfair IMO. As you say they were directed as much to the audience who have been banging on about playing the young team as they were the player himself. The point was almost certainly to lay down a marker, which in itself should be seen as a good thing. The more who are willing to take that on board the better shot they'll have.

I can't remember which game it was but James Scott did a post-match last season and one of the first things he said was that he needed to be fitter.

In a way it circles back to the Dom Thomas situation you had a player there who was clearly talented with the ball at his feet but by from the look of things saw no need to put the graft in then wondered why he wasn't getting a start (edit: for avoidance of doubt I'm not suggesting Livingstone's of a similar mindset).

 

Edited December 6, 2018 by capt_oats

[well fan for life]

I think what we all hope from Livingstone's game last night is that it's a bit of a boot up the backside in terms of making the jump to first team football. Obviously it's a hard game to get chucked in to with the circumstance but he's definitely not physically up to it yet. He had a couple of bits letting the ball run across him that he didn't quite get away with but he probably done it all the time in the 20s. I do really hope he follows the example of Cadden/Campbell/Turnbull and hits the gym every day. Dom Thomas' career trajectory hasn't exactly been stellar since he was jettisoned. 

[thisGRAEME]

Tbh, he's right (it's harsh, and he could have phrased it better, granted).

If you're a youth player battering at the door and asking for chances and thinking you deserve your chance, you get it, you play, and you aren't fit enough to last the distance, then it's difficult to argue with. Yes, chasing Celtic around for an hour is the hardest thing he'll have been asked to do, but you've got to be at that level to grab your chance.

Campbell, Turnbull and Cadden have all survived after the step up because they're clearly fit as f**k. If you're not grafting to be that, and you can't be relied on to finish 90 minutes, then you're not ready.

[well fan for life]

18 minutes ago, thisGRAEME said:

Tbh, he's right (it's harsh, and he could have phrased it better, granted).

If you're a youth player battering at the door and asking for chances and thinking you deserve your chance, you get it, you play, and you aren't fit enough to last the distance, then it's difficult to argue with. Yes, chasing Celtic around for an hour is the hardest thing he'll have been asked to do, but you've got to be at that level to grab your chance.

Campbell, Turnbull and Cadden have all survived after the step up because they're clearly fit as f**k. If you're not grafting to be that, and you can't be relied on to finish 90 minutes, then you're not ready.

I really hope that he does get the heid down now. I mean ffs we've still not replaced Stevie Hammell as everybody who's stepped in has fallen to his cursed amulet. Left back is probably the one position that if you have anything about you you'd get a game with us right now. 

It'll be interesting to see if he does. Cadden had a shakey first 45 minutes for us and then never looked back. Campbell booted Lenny Sowah in to the Sainsbury's car park at Accies and hasn't left the team since. Turnbull had some cameos at the end of last season where we saw a bit of him being a total #baller then he was left out for months. He's sauntered back in to the team now and looks better than most of the first team. If Livingstone gets the head screwed on there's every likelihood he'll be playing most games for us. 

[capt_oats]

18 minutes ago, well fan for life said:

I really hope that he does get the heid down now. I mean ffs we've still not replaced Stevie Hammell as everybody who's stepped in has fallen to his cursed amulet. Left back is probably the one position that if you have anything about you you'd get a game with us right now. 

It'll be interesting to see if he does. Cadden had a shakey first 45 minutes for us and then never looked back. Campbell booted Lenny Sowah in to the Sainsbury's car park at Accies and hasn't left the team since. Turnbull had some cameos at the end of last season where we saw a bit of him being a total #baller then he was left out for months. He's sauntered back in to the team now and looks better than most of the first team. If Livingstone gets the head screwed on there's every likelihood he'll be playing most games for us. 

Needs to get involved with Richard Tait's Crossfit scene IMO.

[Swello]

1 hour ago, well fan for life said:

It'll be interesting to see if he does. Cadden had a shakey first 45 minutes for us and then never looked back. Campbell booted Lenny Sowah in to the Sainsbury's car park at Accies and hasn't left the team since. Turnbull had some cameos at the end of last season where we saw a bit of him being a total #baller then he was left out for months. He's sauntered back in to the team now and looks better than most of the first team. If Livingstone gets the head screwed on there's every likelihood he'll be playing most games for us. 

I think it's always been the case that young players can be ropy early on as they make the step up (Alan Campell disappeared for a while after his "first" debut IIRC) - I can't remember many youth players (Hammell being a clear exception) that have simply dropped into the team and not looked at least a bit ropy early on and so it would be senseless to judge Livingstone harshly on last night given the circumstances.

I think this season, given how poor the 1st team have generally been, there has been a  noticeable trend (usually from people - like me - who are never near a reserve game) to over-play how good - or how ready - our young players are and to use it as a stick to beat Robinson with. Because they have played well in the reserve league or beaten some dross in the challenge cup doesn't necessarily give a perfect guide to their readiness to step up to real games that actually matter. Turnball is clearly ready and overdue a run in the first team - but players like Maguire, Livingstone, Mbulu etc still look like they could do with being introduced very gently and in the right games - or even to go out on Loan and get themselves ready (I'm very keen to see Hastie in action when he gets back). 

First team football is a harsh environment - so there is no sense in mollycoddling young players and Robinson's interview last night won't do Livingstone any harm.