Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[capt_oats]

7 hours ago, Casagolda said:

The shitebag nature of the performance 2nd half is where I have sympathy with Robinson to be honest.

For all we’ve criticised his summer business, me more than most, everybody involved on Sunday(bar Mbulu who came on at 7-1) was at the club last season. You can’t lay the blame at the door of the new guys for this one, 8 of Sunday’s starting 11 also started the Scottish Cup final in May.

These guys got him to 2 cup finals and a comfortable 7th place finish last season, in that respect it’s understandable that Robinson would want to show them a degree of loyalty. Just about everyone one of them have let him down this season though, with nobody really coming close to reaching the levels/standards they set themselves as a team or individuals last season.  

I don’t think Robinson is blameless, the lack of quality in the final third wasn’t addressed in the summer and that’s on him. The poor attitude on Sunday, as well as the weak mentality and soft centre we’ve shown this season though is something Robinson couldn’t possibly have seen coming. 

^^^^^ Absolutely this.

It's precisely why I have a degree of sympathy for him. I think there's a fair chance he's fucked it, but I've sympathy with him. To me, the major failings this season are rooted in something he couldn't have seen coming. He's getting it tight re: summer transfers, which is fair enough to a point but that whole approach was presumably predicated on showing a bit of loyalty and trust to the players who did well for him last season.

Equally if you'd said to most supporters at the end of last season that we'd go into 18/19 with a first team squad with Carson, Aldred, Hartley, Dunne, Tait, Cadden, Campbell and Main all still on the books and a cool £1m banked for Kipré then I think most would have been fine with that. To pivot to an "our players aren't good enough" line seems a bit revisionist IMO.  In a general sense retaining our better players and extending their deals is something that people have been endorsing for a while. This season we've done exactly that. Rather than shipping a few out he's extended deals instead and looked to supplement the squad.

He's completely misjudged his forwards and that's fully on him. However if you look at that 'core' then I'd guess that Robinson would have been expecting us to be roughly where Livi are at the moment.

Even some of the signings he has made; ATS had over 100+ games for Thistle in a position we needed to fill. It's not like we've just plucked from obscurity. He's Scottish, he knows the league...he's been a liability in almost every game he's played for us. Donnelly is slightly different but he's a player who came through at Fulham and holds the record for appearances for N.Ireland's u21s who he's only recently captained to victories against Spain and the like.

These are the sort of players who tick a lot of the boxes for a team at our level. You can pick fault  and question whether we really needed Gorrin (even if Bigi had left we probably didn't) and Sammon's the shitshow everyone predicted but when it comes down to it the reason that the summer window's been fucked is because the guys Robinson's put his faith in and was clearly banking on have regressed hugely.

Who takes ownership of that? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯...ultimately it'll be Robinson I guess.

7 hours ago, Swello said:

My biggest complaint about Robinson (who I like quite honestly) is that he had seemingly been unable to pick more open, attacking teams when we are playing the poorer teams in the league, especially at Fir Park. In the team that beat Saints and Dundee, I think he finally hit on the right approach but I find it really weird then that he continued with the same team when his seemingly beloved tactic of keeping it tight for an hour would probably have been totally legitimate against a team just off the plane from Russia, who have also been starting games at Ibrox really strongly.

This is pretty much where I am. I've mentioned before that I felt this season would be a "difficult second album" type affair for Robinson purely because there was a fair chance he'd be asked to adapt a team and get them playing in a way that possibly pushed him out his comfort zone a bit. Setting up a team to be that bit more attacking is something that he hadn't really shown he could do. Last season he was often quoted saying "we're a team who score a lot goals" which wasn't entirely true. We only won by a margin of more than 2 goals 6 times from 24 wins (Queens Park and Morton in the LC, Aberdeen in LC and SC, Thistle and Accies in the league).

We won games because we were solid at the back not because we were free-scoring. Which is fine but it feels like Robinson kind of oversold what we were doing in the attacking third.

When you look at last season we started off with a back 4 then struck upon the back 3 against County. It seemed to click and Robinson (understandably) stuck with it. The upshot was a shape that worked but players being "out of position" to make it work. However we generally just rolled with it. Weirdly we seem to have done the same after two clean sheets and decent performances against St Mirren and Dundee. Almost like he's thought "right, this is my team from here on in..."

Given Robinson comes across as a pretty pragmatic and dare I say it, conservative manager going to Ibrox with a 442 diamond with a teenager and a player he's still not wholly convinced by in the middle of the park is a pretty weird move. And fair fucks, up until 34 mins we were still in the game.

[Al B]

Regarding the questioning of putting Tait in front of the media, I'm not surprised. Captain or not, Peter Hartley reading out fortune cookies for 4 minutes every week is fairly pointless. He's like a human version of those meaningless generic motivational posters that are intended to inspire but are just cliched nonsense.

If he wasn't a footballer he'd definitely be a team leader in a call centre, and there would be stories about him all over the "Business-Speak/Corporate Nonsense" thread.

Edited November 15, 2018 by Al B

[Luke92]

2 hours ago, Al B said:

Regarding the questioning of putting Tait in front of the media, I'm not surprised. Captain or not, Peter Hartley reading out fortune cookies for 4 minutes every week is fairly pointless. He's like a human version of those meaningless generic motivational posters that are intended to inspire but are just cliched nonsense.

If he wasn't a footballer he'd definitely be a team leader in a call centre, and there would be stories about him all over the "Business-Speak/Corporate Nonsense" thread.

Aye he's defo been reading too much of 'The Secret' or something similar. Each to their own and that I suppose.

Generally speaking I like guys that speak postively in the media rather than having the negative outlook we had with the likes of McGhee but Hartley has done an awful lot of talking and not a lot of playing this season. I wonder if he falls into the category of players who Robinson has repeatedly mentioned he has been 'very loyal' to? Hasn't kicked a ball this season.

[Casagolda]

I think @Swello hit the nail on the head.

Last season Hartley was flanked by two absolute units in Kipre and Dunne who did all of his running for him. All he had to do was stay in the middle and organise the pair of them while heading and kicking anything that came in his general direction. Throw in Carson behind him who caught just about anything slung into his box, plus McHugh/Campbell shielding things in front of him it must have been absolute dream for any centre back.

This season that same structure isn’t there and unfortunately it’s exposing his weaknesses and limitations. Same goes for Aldred as well. 

[capt_oats]

There's yer #YoungMotherwell content.

 

[one m in Motherwell]

One of the greatest days in the club's history. #strakerday

What ever happened with Nathan Thomas anyway? He seems to have done alright since he left us after playing, what, two games?

[well fan for life]

26 minutes ago, one m in Motherwell said:

 

What ever happened with Nathan Thomas anyway? He seems to have done alright since he left us after playing, what, two games?

 

From my understanding we had him on the radar in the event that Marvin Johnson's deal wasn't done. Then we ended up with them both. 

He seems to have done alright since tbf. 

[capt_oats]

15 hours ago, well fan for life said:

From my understanding we had him on the radar in the event that Marvin Johnson's deal wasn't done. Then we ended up with them both. 

He seems to have done alright since tbf. 

You got there before me with that post last night.

He only made 2 appearances, I had the pleasure of attending one of those which was the trauma that was the 0-1 against Dundee at Fir Park. Honestly remember f**k all about him. Going by the news story he was signed until the end of the season with an option.

Looking at his Transfermarkt he was an unused sub for the wins against Accies and Killie then that was it. 

I get that it was #strakerday and Les was really just bankrolling cash to chuck at the team to try and keep us up but it's one of the odder signings. There's a bit of a Belic vibe in so much as he pretty much disappeared on the quiet but as you say he ended up doing pretty well for Hartlepool and Sheffield Utd apparently ended up paying them £300k for him. In a weird quirk of circumstance he's been papped out on loan to Notts County and Sheff United have taken Marvin Johnson on loan from Boro.

 

Edited November 16, 2018 by capt_oats

[capt_oats]

Ally Gorrin playing for the 'Colts' today.

[ropy]

Might be a good replacement for Turnbull if he can show what we saw glimpses of at the start of the season.

[capt_oats]

And the red card 'incident'...

Edited November 18, 2018 by capt_oats

[AndyRoss]

https://www.mfc1886.com/mfc-podcast-2018-19-episode-18/

Sparra is joined by Daniel Gray and Gordon Reid for a special episode of the MFC Podcast.

As well as reflecting on the Irn Bru Cup clash with Ross County and previewing the Scottish Premiership fixture against Aberdeen there was plenty discussion around Daniel’s brilliant new book ‘Black Boots & Football Pinks’.

Matters discussed include modern football stadia, programmes and the culinary habits of Scottish football fans.

[Casagolda]

Bit daft and needless from Mbulu but a straight red for that seems ridiculously harsh. If it’s true that Don Cowie actually went down holding his face and had the physio on for that though then that’s an absolute rid neck like.

From what I’ve heard from those that were there the young team did themselves justice again though. Going over old ground I know but the likes of Scott, Livingstone and Maguire really should be in and around our first team this season- especially the latter 2 who are now both into their 20’s and surely need first team football sooner rather than later. 

Scott’s a few years younger and maybe not quite ready, that’s not say that I don’t think that he couldn’t have at least matched Sammon’s contribution so far this season mind. At least Hastie has been getting regular football while out on loan. Can we/will we recall him January? 

[Swello]

On 11/17/2018 at 20:42, capt_oats said:

And the red card 'incident'...

On one hand - that's a bit of a daft thing to do - although if I had been playing in a team that scored that free kick, I'd be running about with my pants on my head, so I'm not judging. On the other hand, it's a good taste of the sort of arseholery that goes on in "real" football, so better a lesson learned in the diddiest of cups than when he was playing in the first team.

Also - very promising body-ing skills - a solid 8/10.

[capt_oats]

9 hours ago, Casagolda said:

Bit daft and needless from Mbulu but a straight red for that seems ridiculously harsh. If it’s true that Don Cowie actually went down holding his face and had the physio on for that though then that’s an absolute rid neck like.

From what I’ve heard from those that were there the young team did themselves justice again though. Going over old ground I know but the likes of Scott, Livingstone and Maguire really should be in and around our first team this season- especially the latter 2 who are now both into their 20’s and surely need first team football sooner rather than later. 

Scott’s a few years younger and maybe not quite ready, that’s not say that I don’t think that he couldn’t have at least matched Sammon’s contribution so far this season mind. At least Hastie has been getting regular football while out on loan. Can we/will we recall him January? 

Hastie's loan is only until January anyway. So it's a question of whether his loan is extended rather than whether we can recall him. Personally I'd say he offers more than someone like Frear in so much as he's a bit more versatile. He can play wide left, as a forward and left mid. He's also more physical IMO. The fact that Hastie has been playing regularly in both his loan spells validates the decision to send him out IMO.

He'll be learning more starting games for Alloa than he would have sat on his arse on our bench but he's out of contract at at the end of the season so you'd think if we're going to do something with him then Robinson (or whoever the manager is) needs to show a bit of belief and involve him.

Generally though, I'd imagine that Robinson takes his cues on readiness from Craigan, If you listen to most of Craigan's interviews he's making the same references that the young players need to show enough consistency. He's quite explicit in terms of what the benchmarks seem to be.

I also get that, as much as I'd like it to happen, Robinson simply isn't going chuck 5 or 6 of those players into his first team.  Then again, some of the players Robinson's signed are setting the bar that low then the young team clearly look like better options. 

Maguire's been on the bench fairly regularly however I get the feeling that the 5-1 against St Johnstone last season where Steven Maclean utterly rag-dolled him probably put a question mark against him in Robinson's mind. *Looks to Rangers putting 7 (SEVEN) past a defence with Hartley and Aldred*

It's difficult to argue against the fact that the young team are keeping their end of the bargain though. We're at a point where the 'colt' team has now played 8 Irn-Bru Cup fixtures, they've not lost by more than a one goal margin in any of them. Robinson's big on "trusting" his players (that's true of most managers I guess) so while I totally understand the inclination to bring in the likes of ATS, Sammon et al there's going to need to be a leap of faith at some point.

I noticed Livingstone's agent (who also represents Moult AFAIK) took to Twitter post-match encouraging Robinson to play him.

Scott's a weird one, he was hugely impressive on Saturday. Craigan was banging on pre-game about wanting his players to go out and "express themselves"; Scott was cutting about the park like he was channelling his inner Zlatan. He was gallus AF, pulling the ball down in tight areas and he utterly rinsed a few County players. In terms of natural talent, even now he's got a first touch that Ryan Bowman could only dream of.

Stelios needed to buy a ticket back in after Scott shifted the ball past him and his hold up play was excellent. He generally seemed comfortable with the role he was playing. Rather than chasing the ball into the channels he was linking play and bringing others into the game.

Thing is, having said all that, all the good work he was doing was outside the box. I don't recall him bringing a save out the County 'keeper.

8 hours ago, Swello said:

On one hand - that's a bit of a daft thing to do - although if I had been playing in a team that scored that free kick, I'd be running about with my pants on my head, so I'm not judging. On the other hand, it's a good taste of the sort of arseholery that goes on in "real" football, so better a lesson learned in the diddiest of cups than when he was playing in the first team.

Also - very promising body-ing skills - a solid 8/10.

That's the thing, in the grand scheme of things it's pretty instructive and educational. Mbulu gave Cowie a GIRFUY and Cowie out-shithoused him. However really the referee just shat himself. You can see from the footage that he saw the incident and initially let it slide, presumably as he expected Cowie just to get back up and not be an absolute shitebag.

He only took action after Marcus Fraser and others started getting in his face claiming an elbow or a punch before checking on Cowie who was still down holding his face and receiving "treatment". He could just have called Fraser and Cowie out on their bullshit, had a word and told everyone to calm down or booked Mbulu but instead he utterly panicked and presumably second guessed what he saw.

I mean there's an element of hilarity to me that several established pros in that County side were clearly, utterly fucking rattled by players like Hastie, Scott, Maguire et al giving them a proper game and not rolling over (even after going down to 10). Scott putting Fraser on his arse shoulder to shoulder was a low-key highlight for me, as was Ally Gorrin and Liam Brown just ghosting past County midfielders like they weren't there.

Edited November 19, 2018 by capt_oats

[Swello]

Lads - in former player news, Demi Petravicious actually got picked for an international cap and he only went and fucking scored.  I just can't...........

Edited November 20, 2018 by Swello

[one m in Motherwell]

Well, now we look REALLY fucking stupid.

‘Mon the Competition Winner.

[YassinMoutaouakil]

Conceding a bicycle kick to Demi Petravicius is surely the worst thing to happen to Serbia since the mid 1990s.

[well fan for life]

Great player. Always rated him. 

[Ron Aldo]

Get him signed.