Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[Swello]

43 minutes ago, WellView said:

I know there's a thread about Old Firm Colts on this forum already - can someone explain to me why our club would be supportive of this idea?  Quote from article 

"However, they warned that, while the other 10 Premiership clubs were supportive of the Old Firm proposal, "

http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/42977922

Based on what Crags said after the challenge cup games - they want to see the U20's play against men to get them ready for the first team - I would assume that is why we want Colts to be accepted. Everyone knows that the OF colts is supposed to be a forerunner to other elite academies being in there too - so it's not suprising that we are up for it. I'm not sure why being in a team of men whilst on loan isn't even better but there you go.

I remain of the opinion that the Colts stuff is one of the most ill-conceived ideas ever to be shat out of the SPFL - and that really is saying something. Get it in the bin.

[capt_oats]

Based on what Crags said after the challenge cup games - they want to see the U20's play against men to get them ready for the first team - I would assume that is why we want Colts to be accepted. Everyone knows that the OF colts is supposed to be a forerunner to other elite academies being in there too - so it's not suprising that we are up for it. I'm not sure why being in a team of men whilst on loan isn't even better but there you go. I remain of the opinion that the Colts stuff is one of the most ill-conceived ideas ever to be shat out of the SPFL - and that really is saying something. Get it in the bin.

The obvious argument from a developmental point of view is that you’re handing the player over and placing him outside an environment that you control in terms of coaching, tactics, conditioning etc. You’re effectively placing your trust in the coaching staff of another club and hoping that they are on the same page as you.

I’m actually quite conflicted on the whole thing as it’s clearly a terrible idea and should get so far to f**k on a moral/integrity level. However in a development sense I can absolutely see the merits.

[Busta Nut]

Good discussion lately. Not much to add on what's been said.

 

 

On 2/6/2018 at 17:05, thisGRAEME said:

 

Just don't see it. Everything is cyclical, and 10 is an almost unfeasibly long cycle. I don't see them dragging themselves through another four years without a mishap.

Fair play to them if they do, but I'd be surprised.

 

I had a look at my current FM game while reading this, just oot of interest.

 

What is that 26?

It's FM and FM is real as f**k. due to happen.

[Busta Nut]

3 hours ago, WellView said:

I know there's a thread about Old Firm Colts on this forum already - can someone explain to me why our club would be supportive of this idea?  Quote from article 

"However, they warned that, while the other 10 Premiership clubs were supportive of the Old Firm proposal, "

http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/42977922

 

2 hours ago, Swello said:

Based on what Crags said after the challenge cup games - they want to see the U20's play against men to get them ready for the first team - I would assume that is why we want Colts to be accepted. Everyone knows that the OF colts is supposed to be a forerunner to other elite academies being in there too - so it's not suprising that we are up for it. I'm not sure why being in a team of men whilst on loan isn't even better but there you go.

I remain of the opinion that the Colts stuff is one of the most ill-conceived ideas ever to be shat out of the SPFL - and that really is saying something. Get it in the bin.

 

 

On this chat anaw. Here is oor Keef on this.

 

Quote

 

http://www.mfc1886.com/mfc-podcast-2017-18-episode-23/

 

Sparra, Busta and Jay look back on meetings with Hibs and Partick Thistle and look ahead to the Scottish Premiership clash with St Johnstone and Scottish Cup encounter with Dundee at Dens Park. Also on the agenda was reaction to the end of the January transfer window.

In the second half of the podcast the Daily Record’s Jonny McFarlane and Motherwell assistant boss Keith Lasley joined the lads for a lively discussion on the proposal to introduce ‘Colt teams’ into the Scottish League

 

I went into this blind just hating the idea. If it is done right and not just as a way for the OF to whore up all the young talent then I could maybe see a point to it.

 

I might have posted this earlier BTW. I am unsure

[happyaccie]

4 hours ago, capt_oats said:

The obvious argument from a developmental point of view is that you’re handing the player over and placing him outside an environment that you control in terms of coaching, tactics, conditioning etc. You’re effectively placing your trust in the coaching staff of another club and hoping that they are on the same page as you.

I’m actually quite conflicted on the whole thing as it’s clearly a terrible idea and should get so far to f**k on a moral/integrity level. However in a development sense I can absolutely see the merits.

Paragraph one spot on,paragraph two the exact same until the last line, do you seriously think that exposing a team full of young development players, to the rigours of senior football against seasoned grizzly pros will enhance their development, I am of the opinion it will detract from any advancement in their careers as they will be meeting opposition invariably of lesser quality, but superior experience which may result in them being open to some harrowing experiences. 

To my mind these proposals are being fronted by the OF as it clearly suits their agendas, it is a farcical proposal which hopefully fails before it even reaches the vote stage, Stenhousemuir FC being the 2nd lower league club to announce their resistance to these proposals which hopefully is being echoed in boardrooms the length and breadth of the country.

[nsr]

3 hours ago, happyaccie said:

 do you seriously think that exposing a team full of young development players, to the rigours of senior football against seasoned grizzly pros 

I knew the League Two clubs weren't exactly awash with talent, but I didn't realise they were making signings of the ursine variety.

[Archie McSquackle]

While I don't agree with the principle of the proposals anyway, surely it fails on the merits of the clubs involved. Celtic have been fairly dominant at U-21 level in recent years (although I don't think they won the league last season) but Rangers haven't performed well at all at that level in recent years and even withdrew from the league to follow their own agenda.

If this is such a brilliant idea then, to play devil's advocate, perhaps it should be Hibs and Ross County (for example) put forward.

[capt_oats]

4 hours ago, happyaccie said:

Paragraph one spot on,paragraph two the exact same until the last line, do you seriously think that exposing a team full of young development players, to the rigours of senior football against seasoned grizzly pros will enhance their development, I am of the opinion it will detract from any advancement in their careers as they will be meeting opposition invariably of lesser quality, but superior experience which may result in them being open to some harrowing experiences. 

To my mind these proposals are being fronted by the OF as it clearly suits their agendas, it is a farcical proposal which hopefully fails before it even reaches the vote stage, Stenhousemuir FC being the 2nd lower league club to announce their resistance to these proposals which hopefully is being echoed in boardrooms the length and breadth of the country.

I can only really speak on our u20s side as that's the one I've watched most but in their (admittedly limited) exposure to competitive football they've played L2 sides twice (Edinburgh City & Queens Park) and won both. They narrowly lost to L1 Airdrie and were 2-1 up with 10 mins to go in their tie against current semi-finalists Crusaders where a goalkeeping error cost them. That's a small sample size and you could no doubt question how seriously the league sides were taking the fixtures but you can only deal with what's in front of you. Either way they've more than held their own in the competitive fixtures they've been asked to play.

It may well be the case that over the course of a season they'd struggle or who knows, they may not. However in a development sense I think the coaching staff and players would get far more individually and collectively from playing regular competitive games than they would in Dev league or Reserve league bounce matches or individual players being shipped off to whichever lower league side wants to take them in the hope that they get game time.

As I said in my original post, IMO the proposal should be a non-starter on the grounds of maintaining some degree of integrity to the league. However that in itself doesn't mean that there aren't valid developmental points there.

Edited February 8, 2018 by capt_oats

[shootingboots]

8 hours ago, Busta Nut said:

Good discussion lately. Not much to add on what's been said.

 

 

I had a look at my current FM game while reading this, just oot of interest.

 

What is that 26?

It's FM and FM is real as f**k. due to happen.

26 in a row is more believable than the runners up of 2018/19  

Edited February 8, 2018 by shootingboots

[happyaccie]

8 hours ago, Busta Nut said:

Good discussion lately. Not much to add on what's been said.

 

 

I had a look at my current FM game while reading this, just oot of interest.

 

What is that 26?

It's FM and FM is real as f**k. due to happen.

They failed to get last seasons runner-up right.

[Swello]

16 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

I can only really speak on our u20s side as that's the one I've watched most but in their (admittedly limited) exposure to competitive football they've played L2 sides twice (Edinburgh City & Queens Park) and won both. They narrowly lost to L1 Airdrie and were 2-1 up with 10 mins to go in their tie against current semi-finalists Crusaders where a goalkeeping error cost them. That's a small sample size and you could no doubt question how seriously the league sides were taking the fixtures but you can only deal with what's in front of you. Either way they've more than held their own in the competitive fixtures they've been asked to play.

It may well be the case that over the course of a season they'd struggle or who knows, they may not. However in a development sense I think the coaching staff and players would get far more individually and collectively from playing regular competitive games than they would in Dev league or Reserve league bounce matches or individual players being shipped off to whichever lower league side wants to take them in the hope that they get game time.

As I said in my original post, IMO the proposal should be a non-starter on the grounds of maintaining some degree of integrity to the league. However that in itself doesn't mean that there aren't valid developmental points there.

There are copious threads on this, so I don't really want to derail the MFC one - but over and above the idea of effectively ruining league 2 - the fundamental thing that I don't understand is that surely if all 8 Elite Academies, as would presumably be their right, took up a Colts place in league 2, then they would be playing against other colt teams most weeks unless the league was massively expanded?

There can't be a fair situation where some clubs are locked out of the system and so you could conceivably have a situation where half the league can't be promoted or relegated. In the extreme example where you presumably have an expanded 18 team league to accept (at least) the elite academies Colts - the 9th place club would be promoted in the event that the colt teams all did well and clubs with double figure league placings would be in the promotion playoffs. Or the opposite where a club finishing 10th out of 18 could be relegated to non-league football.

I can't see a way to balance the improved development opportunities with not utterly fucking up the league.

 

[Busta Nut]

54 minutes ago, happyaccie said:

They failed to get last seasons runner-up right.

FM 16 mate

[capt_oats]

1 hour ago, Swello said:

There are copious threads on this, so I don't really want to derail the MFC one - but over and above the idea of effectively ruining league 2 - the fundamental thing that I don't understand is that surely if all 8 Elite Academies, as would presumably be their right, took up a Colts place in league 2, then they would be playing against other colt teams most weeks unless the league was massively expanded?

There can't be a fair situation where some clubs are locked out of the system and so you could conceivably have a situation where half the league can't be promoted or relegated. In the extreme example where you presumably have an expanded 18 team league to accept (at least) the elite academies Colts - the 9th place club would be promoted in the event that the colt teams all did well and clubs with double figure league placings would be in the promotion playoffs. Or the opposite where a club finishing 10th out of 18 could be relegated to non-league football.

I can't see a way to balance the improved development opportunities with not utterly fucking up the league.

Aye, agree completely.

Similarly aware of trying to avoid derailing the thread but I'm largely in the same position as you.

The only way they could do it that I could see would be to bin the "elite academy" idea and formalise the Development league before restructuring the pyramid in order to create an organic pathway from Development league into League 2 maybe running parallel with the highland and lowland leagues or going down further to the 6th tier. Even that wouldn't be without issue as you'd not be guaranteed relegation of a Colt side every season to replace the promoted side from the Development tier.

Apart from the obvious fact that the whole proposal is being raised as a means to placate 2 teams there are various independent issues that I can't really see being adequately resolved without a complete league overhaul. It's taking things off on a tangent even further but I wouldn't be wholly surprised if league reconstruction in a broader sense was something that was up for consideration in the near future tbh.

Edited February 8, 2018 by capt_oats

[WellView]

13 hours ago, Swello said:

Based on what Crags said after the challenge cup games - they want to see the U20's play against men to get them ready for the first team - I would assume that is why we want Colts to be accepted. Everyone knows that the OF colts is supposed to be a forerunner to other elite academies being in there too - so it's not suprising that we are up for it. I'm not sure why being in a team of men whilst on loan isn't even better but there you go.

I remain of the opinion that the Colts stuff is one of the most ill-conceived ideas ever to be shat out of the SPFL - and that really is saying something. Get it in the bin.

Discussing youth development is not derailing the thread.  Swello mentions massive league expansion. I was going to post this in the OF Colts thread last week but decided I'd be inviting a troll-fest. You guys seem relatively sane so I may get a fair hearing here. 

I talked to Ronnie McDonald of Hamilton a while ago, among other things we discussed youth development, and first tier professional teams in Scotland. I reckoned there were 16 first tier teams, Ronnie reckoned there were 18.  I will bow to his superior knowledge.  By definition, that means that there are 24 senior teams in Scotland that are treading water.  Fine - they don't have the fan base, sometimes ambition, and certainly financial wherewithal to go head to head with the bigger teams.  We could do without another Gretna, that was a folly that destroyed a decent wee club.  Here's what I would do. 

I'd start a development league 1 and 2, and invite the junior teams that want access to the senior game to enter.  The winners of development league 1 would gain promotion to the senior league two. The colt teams would need to field a minimum of 8 players at anyone time on the pitch. I'd prefer 9.  That stipulation would be held against them no matter what league they were in. 

There should be no barrier to further promotion. The idea that the colt teams should be barred from rising into league one or the Championship is mental. It defeats the whole purpose of meaningful competition.  I can see an argument for preventing colt teams from gaining promotion to the premiership.  I suppose the solution to that is to introduce a rule where the maximum the colts could rise to would be the league below the parent team.  Dundee United Colts couldn't get promotion to the Championship under current circumstances, for example.  

Senior leagues one and two are moribund.  If someone like Stenhousemuir can't field a team that fields 9 under-20's, I have no sympathy for them.  You wouldn't often see me at a development game now, but I and many others would be there if we were in the mix for winning development league 1 and above.  Just the same as you wouldn't find it hard to get me to a Well Colts v Airdrie game, especially if beating them resulted in their relegation. 

The older fans among us can remember the closed shop. The best thing that happened to Scottish football in the last couple of decades was league expansion. If you want proof, look at ICT and Ross County, both who came from nowhere to winning the Scottish Cup and being premier league stalwarts.  I'm not suggesting that my idea would result in that ( unless one of the junior teams emulates them ), but it would certainly stir interest in the lower leagues, bring in more cash to the minor teams, and provide the most important thing - a meaningful development environment for the 17 -21 year olds. 

And while I note ( and agree ) with Stenhousemuirs objection to the OF Colts being grafted into senior league two - no one could put up a justifiable objection to teams earning the right to be in the senior leagues through pyramid system promotion.  Let the ambitious junior teams, and let the colt teams, compete. 

[Swello]

10 minutes ago, WellView said:

Discussing youth development is not derailing the thread.  Swello mentions massive league expansion. I was going to post this in the OF Colts thread last week but decided I'd be inviting a troll-fest. You guys seem relatively sane so I may get a fair hearing here. 

I talked to Ronnie McDonald of Hamilton a while ago, among other things we discussed youth development, and first tier professional teams in Scotland. I reckoned there were 16 first tier teams, Ronnie reckoned there were 18.  I will bow to his superior knowledge.  By definition, that means that there are 24 senior teams in Scotland that are treading water.  Fine - they don't have the fan base, sometimes ambition, and certainly financial wherewithal to go head to head with the bigger teams.  We could do without another Gretna, that was a folly that destroyed a decent wee club.  Here's what I would do. 

I'd start a development league 1 and 2, and invite the junior teams that want access to the senior game to enter.  The winners of development league 1 would gain promotion to the senior league two. The colt teams would need to field a minimum of 8 players at anyone time on the pitch. I'd prefer 9.  That stipulation would be held against them no matter what league they were in. 

There should be no barrier to further promotion. The idea that the colt teams should be barred from rising into league one or the Championship is mental. It defeats the whole purpose of meaningful competition.  I can see an argument for preventing colt teams from gaining promotion to the premiership.  I suppose the solution to that is to introduce a rule where the maximum the colts could rise to would be the league below the parent team.  Dundee United Colts couldn't get promotion to the Championship under current circumstances, for example.  

Senior leagues one and two are moribund.  If someone like Stenhousemuir can't field a team that fields 9 under-20's, I have no sympathy for them.  You wouldn't often see me at a development game now, but I and many others would be there if we were in the mix for winning development league 1 and above.  Just the same as you wouldn't find it hard to get me to a Well Colts v Airdrie game, especially if beating them resulted in their relegation. 

The older fans among us can remember the closed shop. The best thing that happened to Scottish football in the last couple of decades was league expansion. If you want proof, look at ICT and Ross County, both who came from nowhere to winning the Scottish Cup and being premier league stalwarts.  I'm not suggesting that my idea would result in that ( unless one of the junior teams emulates them ), but it would certainly stir interest in the lower leagues, bring in more cash to the minor teams, and provide the most important thing - a meaningful development environment for the 17 -21 year olds. 

And while I note ( and agree ) with Stenhousemuirs objection to the OF Colts being grafted into senior league two - no one could put up a justifiable objection to teams earning the right to be in the senior leagues through pyramid system promotion.  Let the ambitious junior teams, and let the colt teams, compete. 

I don't have time just now to respond fully - but my initial concern is that Colt teams would effectively be cross-subsidised by their parent club and to me having teams that could not be sustainably run on their own merits would make a mockery of the senior league that they were in - or would lead to a Gretna-like situation where they are flying through the leagues using money, coaching setups and facilities that they couldn't conceivably fund.

Even sensible sounding ideas like colt teams having to be one level below their parent could lead to some really messy outcomes. I personally think that the Championship (still fucking hate typing that) is a brilliant league - but imagine the mess it would have been if Hearts, Hibs, Rangers and Utd Colts all had to be summarily demoted due to their parents being relegated in the space of a couple of years as has happened recently? It would render the competition meaningless. What if Aberdeen, Celtic, Hearts, Hibs, Motherwell, Killie, Dundee, Dundee Utd, St Johnstone colts all rose to the Championship over time - you could be in the farcical situation where only a couple of teams could be promoted. If you put an artificial ceiling on the number of colt teams in any league, then you are back to putting arbitrary barriers in place and messing up the integrity of every league below the prem. 

Lastly - (and this isn't aimed at you) - I've never been comfortable with treating lower division clubs as some sort of expendable social-club-with-a-football-pitch-attached - my view is that they've got as much right to exist at their natural level as we do - and putting unreasonable strictures on them is as unfair and counterproductive as it would be if the biggest clubs in the Prem did it to 'Well.

[WellView]

^^ I wont quote all for ease of reading. 

I knew chairmen of lower league clubs in the past. Your description of them as social-clubs-with-pitches is accurate.  Even though you don't like that description, you called it right. I remember one bemoaning the loss of a puggy from his social club, as the income from said puggy was critical. 

There's a common held lie in Scottish football, in that we have 42 senior teams.  This delusion has to end.  Ther's eighteen, and the rest. And no sympathy for the rest, they've had a hundred years or more of forkin' about pretending they are relevant to the professional game.   A lot of the frustrating decisions by the SFA are down to representatives of these teams.  We need structural reform, one professional body as Roy McGregor pointed out, and a Chief Executive who has the power to make decisions. 

Until that happens, we'll keep sliding backwards. 

[Desp]

1 hour ago, Swello said:

Lastly - (and this isn't aimed at you) - I've never been comfortable with treating lower division clubs as some sort of expendable social-club-with-a-football-pitch-attached - my view is that they've got as much right to exist at their natural level as we do - and putting unreasonable strictures on them is as unfair and counterproductive as it would be if the biggest clubs in the Prem did it to 'Well.

This was one of the issues I had after reading WellView's post.  Don't get me wrong, it contained some good, well thought-out ideas but there were a couple I wouldn't agree with.

If I was reading it right WellView, were you suggesting that ALL clubs, colt or otherwise, in Leagues 1 and 2, be forced to field at least eight or nine Under-20's in every match?  What do you suggest we do with all of the players over the age of 21 who play at that level as that's simply their level?  Do they get tossed to the scrapheap and told not to come back as "you're no use to us, mate"?  Surely if you agreed that, it would just transfer the current Development League into Leagues 1 & 2 (i.e youngsters continuing to play youngsters).

Are Colt teams allowed in the Cups?  Would we be allowed to draw them in a Cup tie?  That would lead to all kinds of farce.

I also would suggest that the percentage of fans who would go a Motherwell (for example) game one week and a Motherwell Colts game the following week would be miniscule.  It's not the 50s and 60s were you'd get folk going to the nearest game on a Saturday afternoon.  Times have changed.

Most certainly, one of the better things to have happened in recent years was to open up the league and to get a pyramid structure in place.  But for me, this Colt idea can get in the fucking sea. 

[happyaccie]

2 hours ago, WellView said:

Discussing youth development is not derailing the thread.  Swello mentions massive league expansion. I was going to post this in the OF Colts thread last week but decided I'd be inviting a troll-fest. You guys seem relatively sane so I may get a fair hearing here. 

I talked to Ronnie McDonald of Hamilton a while ago, among other things we discussed youth development, and first tier professional teams in Scotland. I reckoned there were 16 first tier teams, Ronnie reckoned there were 18.  I will bow to his superior knowledge.  By definition, that means that there are 24 senior teams in Scotland that are treading water.  Fine - they don't have the fan base, sometimes ambition, and certainly financial wherewithal to go head to head with the bigger teams.  We could do without another Gretna, that was a folly that destroyed a decent wee club.  Here's what I would do. 

I'd start a development league 1 and 2, and invite the junior teams that want access to the senior game to enter.  The winners of development league 1 would gain promotion to the senior league two. The colt teams would need to field a minimum of 8 players at anyone time on the pitch. I'd prefer 9.  That stipulation would be held against them no matter what league they were in. 

There should be no barrier to further promotion. The idea that the colt teams should be barred from rising into league one or the Championship is mental. It defeats the whole purpose of meaningful competition.  I can see an argument for preventing colt teams from gaining promotion to the premiership.  I suppose the solution to that is to introduce a rule where the maximum the colts could rise to would be the league below the parent team.  Dundee United Colts couldn't get promotion to the Championship under current circumstances, for example.  

Senior leagues one and two are moribund.  If someone like Stenhousemuir can't field a team that fields 9 under-20's, I have no sympathy for them.  You wouldn't often see me at a development game now, but I and many others would be there if we were in the mix for winning development league 1 and above.  Just the same as you wouldn't find it hard to get me to a Well Colts v Airdrie game, especially if beating them resulted in their relegation. 

The older fans among us can remember the closed shop. The best thing that happened to Scottish football in the last couple of decades was league expansion. If you want proof, look at ICT and Ross County, both who came from nowhere to winning the Scottish Cup and being premier league stalwarts.  I'm not suggesting that my idea would result in that ( unless one of the junior teams emulates them ), but it would certainly stir interest in the lower leagues, bring in more cash to the minor teams, and provide the most important thing - a meaningful development environment for the 17 -21 year olds. 

And while I note ( and agree ) with Stenhousemuirs objection to the OF Colts being grafted into senior league two - no one could put up a justifiable objection to teams earning the right to be in the senior leagues through pyramid system promotion.  Let the ambitious junior teams, and let the colt teams, compete. 

Your suggestion could very well end up with 2 teams affiliated to the same club playing top teir football, it's just a no goer in my and many other fans opinions.

[capt_oats]

There’s yer MFC tapping into dat global market again.

Boy has 40k insta followers and is over from Berbatov’s team in India (and one of Pearo’s former clubs).

Edited February 8, 2018 by capt_oats

[RandomGuy.]

On 06/02/2018 at 17:16, MJC said:

Who's going to win it to stop them? They have no challenge worthy of the name and are financially lightyears ahead of the rest of the game. The only way Celtic don't win 10, 11, 12,13, or as many as they want in a row is if they secure a deal to leave Scottish football.

Theyve already started to stumble, Rodgers won't stay four years if they continue they way they're going, and if they hire another Delia?..

Rangers heading upwards but always have the lingering doubt over their finances. And realistically Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen should be aiming towards challenging considering they all seem financially sound now.