The Partick Thistle thread

[Bishop Briggs]

11 minutes ago, TONTROOPER said:

No problemo.

I'm sure Fossie will use his contacts at Firhill Quay to get things sorted. 

He can send Amy out to busk in Buchanan Street.

[TONTROOPER]

37 minutes ago, Bishop Briggs said:

He can send Amy out to busk in Buchanan Street.

Sorted 

[Rudolph Hucker]

4 hours ago, R&Y99 said:

 

There needs to be some surgery to the squad in summer, certain areas of the pitch in particular that come to mind

Yeah. ALL of it, every bloody square yard.

 

[Jacky1990]

59 minutes ago, Rudolph Hucker said:

Yeah. ALL of it, every bloody square yard.

 

Without a doubt the worst thing about Thistle going through a bad run of form isnt our stuttering play off push, shite results, awful performances or just the general shiteness of supporting a team in a bad spell.

Its you popping your head back above the parapet.

Its fucking weird. Go get some mates.

[Pat Boon]

7 hours ago, TONTROOPER said:

Correct.

BBCs local club is Rangers. Get it right.

[Jaffaboy]

15 hours ago, Bishop Briggs said:

We needed a £500k from 3BC to survive. If we are still losing money now, there could be major cash-flow problems over the next three months until the season ticket sales revenue comes in. At that point, The Jags Foundation is supposed to take control of the club. It appears that TGF has not undertaken due diligence, possibly because it cannot afford the necessary professional advisers.

With little or no cash, season ticket prices will need to increase significantly to put some money in the bank. With the pitch needing major work and other  costs rising, it's hard to see how we can afford to maintain the current staff and playing budgets. It seems that the current Board has gambled hugely on winning promotion and the fans will have to cover future losses. 

it is not that they cannot afford it. it is that Three Black Cats will not permit it in any meaningful conventional independent nor professional way.  
 

it was the agreed position of tjf board that due diligence would be done 

in early consultation with fans/potential members when the topic came up, they were reassured that was the agreed position. 
 

Subsequently it became apparent JL was not in favour of this.  
 

it was agreed by the entire tjf board that I wrote to her explaining why proper due diligence should proceed to protect everyone. 
 

She wrote back and said no.  She offered a “knowledge sharing” approach. (Whatever that is). 
 

At that point, tjf had a decision to make. We had told people who were  now members due diligence would be done. 
 

it became apparent to me tjf board (with certain individuals pushing accepting  it hard) were happy to either accept knowledge sharing proposal, or think that they could “kick the ball down the road” and request due diligence again at a later date.  Both approaches seemed deeply flawed to me. 
 

I consulted my institute (I am a chartered accountant) and my personal values and conscience and concluded I could not stay involved so resigned from TJF. 

Since then, information has emerged in the public domain that TJF were blissfully unaware of, suggesting that the knowledge share approach has not been a great success in the intervening four and a half months.  

 

[Rudolph Hucker]

11 hours ago, Jacky1990 said:

Without a doubt the worst thing about Thistle going through a bad run of form isnt our stuttering play off push, shite results, awful performances or just the general shiteness of supporting a team in a bad spell.

Its you popping your head back above the parapet.

Its fucking weird. Go get some mates.

Ooh, touchy! Public forum  sunshine, free to all, just like ours is.  Put me on "ignore" if I rattle your cage, I assure you I won't be offended.

Meanwhile in the spirit of friendship I'm happy to help you gather up your toys and pop them back in the pram. Before they get covered in mud.

 

 

[thistledo]

18 hours ago, Bishop Briggs said:

We needed a £500k from 3BC to survive. If we are still losing money now, there could be major cash-flow problems over the next three months until the season ticket sales revenue comes in. At that point, The Jags Foundation is supposed to take control of the club. It appears that TGF has not undertaken due diligence, possibly because it cannot afford the necessary professional advisers.

With little or no cash, season ticket prices will need to increase significantly to put some money in the bank. With the pitch needing major work and other  costs rising, it's hard to see how we can afford to maintain the current staff and playing budgets. It seems that the current Board has gambled hugely on winning promotion and the fans will have to cover future losses. 

The £500k didn't concern me really, given lockdown and the way we spent money. Yes long term not feasible, but for now, I don't think it's of great concern. 

 

[Highlandmagar]

23 minutes ago, thistledo said:

The £500k didn't concern me really, given lockdown and the way we spent money. Yes long term not feasible, but for now, I don't think it's of great concern. 

 

If we don't go up( which is extremely doubtful) that 500k will be of a huge concern for next season. A vastly reduced budget and a huge impact of any promotion ambitions.

[Jaffaboy]

35 minutes ago, thistledo said:

The £500k didn't concern me really, given lockdown and the way we spent money. Yes long term not feasible, but for now, I don't think it's of great concern. 

 

All other teams who have so far filed accounts improved their cash position during covid and so are sitting on cash war chests. 

We splurged 500k from a source none of them had and yet our cash reduced. 
I want us to be a sustainable competitive breakeven club. That we had the 500k was indeed nice but it hasn’t perhaps set the foundations for a future of those qualities. 
 

[thistledo]

28 minutes ago, Highlandmagyar Tier 3 said:

If we don't go up( which is extremely doubtful) that 500k will be of a huge concern for next season. A vastly reduced budget and a huge impact of any promotion ambitions.

Could be yeah, I was meaning just from a general financial perspective. Heard a few fans giving it a bit "we're doomed" financially, which isn't true. 

13 minutes ago, Jaffaboy said:

All other teams who have so far filed accounts improved their cash position during covid and so are sitting on cash war chests. 

We splurged 500k from a source none of them had and yet our cash reduced. 
I want us to be a sustainable competitive breakeven club. That we had the 500k was indeed nice but it hasn’t perhaps set the foundations for a future of those qualities. 
 

I've not even looked at any others, are we talking championship teams? If so which ones, out of interest? 

I would wholeheartedly agree a sustainable business model for the club would be great and no the £500k doesn't seem to have been well used. All that's come and gone in the past when Colin Weir was involved has rather clouded our financials. 

[Bishop Briggs]

4 hours ago, Jaffaboy said:

it is not that they cannot afford it. it is that Three Black Cats will not permit it in any meaningful conventional independent nor professional way.  
 

it was the agreed position of tjf board that due diligence would be done 

in early consultation with fans/potential members when the topic came up, they were reassured that was the agreed position. 
 

Subsequently it became apparent JL was not in favour of this.  
 

it was agreed by the entire tjf board that I wrote to her explaining why proper due diligence should proceed to protect everyone. 
 

She wrote back and said no.  She offered a “knowledge sharing” approach. (Whatever that is). 
 

At that point, tjf had a decision to make. We had told people who were  now members due diligence would be done. 
 

it became apparent to me tjf board (with certain individuals pushing accepting  it hard) were happy to either accept knowledge sharing proposal, or think that they could “kick the ball down the road” and request due diligence again at a later date.  Both approaches seemed deeply flawed to me. 
 

I consulted my institute (I am a chartered accountant) and my personal values and conscience and concluded I could not stay involved so resigned from TJF. 

Since then, information has emerged in the public domain that TJF were blissfully unaware of, suggesting that the knowledge share approach has not been a great success in the intervening four and a half months.  

 

Many thanks for that very valuable, informative and (frankly) worrying update.

ETA - Has the SFA approved TJF's takeover of the club? 

Edited March 24, 2022 by Bishop Briggs

[Highlandmagar]

9 minutes ago, Bishop Briggs said:

Many thanks for that very valuable, informative and (frankly) worrying update.

Makes you wonder what J Low's agenda really is. The smokescreen of " fan ownership " with her in control? She is cancer on the club.

[Jaffaboy]

32 minutes ago, thistledo said:

Could be yeah, I was meaning just from a general financial perspective. Heard a few fans giving it a bit "we're doomed" financially, which isn't true. 

I've not even looked at any others, are we talking championship teams? If so which ones, out of interest? 

I would wholeheartedly agree a sustainable business model for the club would be great and no the £500k doesn't seem to have been well used. All that's come and gone in the past when Colin Weir was involved has rather clouded our financials. 

This is an extract of the info I passed to TJF because I became aware that at least one of their number was propagating the erroneous narrative that covid has been disastrous for Scottish football. I thought it was right they had this information and dealt with it but happy to share now given the reply received from them on the matter.  

Instinctively in late 2020, I believed every club should have improved financial results for a variety of reasons, namely :
 
. Grants received from varying sources
. Furlough
. Pay per view
. Retaining season ticket monies without all of the costs of putting on the games
.  Non refunding of season ticket monies
. Fans fundraising initiatives - none better than our own Caroline’s fabulous efforts
 
There are other much more nuanced points around this which I am sure are too subtle for this discussion but I am happy to explain. I have to say this was not merely my instinctive view, I know a number of people associated with Scottish football and their finances who had also arrived at this conclusion.
 
I have analysed the available filed accounts of each club in the bottom three divisions of the SPFL. I have excluded the Premier League primarily because they received loans instead of grants, and so are not comparable to Partick Thistle, nor the other teams in the bottom three divisions
 
Here are some highlights from the analysis I have done.-
 
In the first year of Covid, PTFC made an operating loss of £130k. This assumes no support from 3BC, so in reality that is the best case underlying result of PTFC for that accounting year.
In that same year, of the other non-Premier League teams, 19 made profits, 9 made losses. Some of the losses were reduced losses, ie better than the result for the year before, or the loss was a small quantum.  Only 3 teams in those divisions had a higher operating loss than PTFC (Queens Park, Inverness CT, and Morton).
I also analysed cash – 24 teams increased their cash reserves in 2020, whilst 4 saw their cash reserves deteriorate. Only Dunfermline had a larger decrease in cash than PTFC in 2020 from those divisions.
 
We can move onto the second year of Covid – the one which aligns to the recent TBC accounts which stimulated the latest outbreak of this debate.
 
Without support from TBC, PTFC would have a loss of £530k in 2021. (We did have their support though so that loss would never have occurred but it speaks to our culture and our future sustainability). 
 
Of the 2021 accounts filed so far, 10 clubs show profits and a single one shows a loss of you adjust for tbc support – PTFC. Among the clubs making profits, 4 were in the same division as PTFC that season. Aside from our operating loss of £530k, the next poorest result from that division filed so far is Falkirk (PROFIT of £112k).  Forfar, East Fife and Clyde have also filed results showing even larger profits for that year. 
 
Again, I think we should look at cash. Of the 11 clubs who have already filed their 2021 accounts from the bottom three divisions, 10 show an increase in cash over the two year period since Covid has been so beneficial to Scottish football finances beyond the Premier League. Only a solitary one shows a net decrease in cash reserves over the two years. The one which does is PTFC who show a decrease of £43k over the two year period. For full context, here is how everyone else got on :
 
Club
Increase or Decrease over two years
Amount
 
 
 
PTFC
DECREASE
(£43k) after at least £530k support from TBC
 
 
 
Stirling
INCREASE
£192k
Elgin City
INCREASE
£228k
Forfar
INCREASE
£276k
East Fife
INCREASE
£227k
Alloa
INCREASE
£300k
Clyde
INCREASE
£309k
Falkirk
INCREASE
£583k
Dunfermline
INCREASE
£812k
QOS
INCREASE
£779k
Raith
INCREASE
£352k
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Whilst cash is not profit, it can arise from various sources, I do think this is further evidence that Covid has not in fact affected spfl clubs adversely which is a narrative some have been keen to make re ptfc. I also think that it also shows other clubs are coming out of covid better positioned in cash terms for the future. 

Edited March 24, 2022 by Jaffaboy

[Bishop Briggs]

3 minutes ago, Highlandmagyar Tier 3 said:

Makes you wonder what J Low's agenda really is. The smokescreen of " fan ownership " with her in control? She is cancer on the club.

I edited my earlier post to ask whether the SFA has approved the change of ownership/control in this way. 

[Bishop Briggs]

Prominent Dundee fans have sent an open letter to the owners in a bid to combat growing unrest - https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/sport/football/dundee-fc/3132335/dundee-fans-send-open-letter-to-owners-tim-keyes-and-john-nelms-in-bid-to-combat-growing-unrest-at-dens-park/.

Do we need a similar letter to be sent to J Low and the Board? If so, who should be the key signatories?

Edited March 24, 2022 by Bishop Briggs

[Nightmare]

Appreciate the details @Jaffaboy - it all paints a pretty alarming picture of what's going on behind the scenes at the club.

My main issue is: where is the money going? How can we be losing more money than just about everyone else around us? On paper the squad doesn't look like it would be overly expensive - if anything we probably have just about the exact calibre of team you'd expect with the 3rd/4th highest budget in the league that I assume we have. They're certainly not spending any cash on the stadium, which is turning into a crumbling wreck.

The only two things I can really think of that are that either the squad we have is vastly overpaid relative to their ability, or money is somehow getting funneled out of the club and into someone else's pockets (no prizes for guessing who the prime suspect here would be). Either way, whether it's just incompetence or something a bit more sinister, neither situation is particularly positive.

[thistledo]

1 hour ago, Jaffaboy said:

This is an extract of the info I passed to TJF because I became aware that at least one of their number was propagating the erroneous narrative that covid has been disastrous for Scottish football. I thought it was right they had this information and dealt with it but happy to share now given the reply received from them on the matter.  

Instinctively in late 2020, I believed every club should have improved financial results for a variety of reasons, namely :
 
. Grants received from varying sources
. Furlough
. Pay per view
. Retaining season ticket monies without all of the costs of putting on the games
.  Non refunding of season ticket monies
. Fans fundraising initiatives - none better than our own Caroline’s fabulous efforts
 
There are other much more nuanced points around this which I am sure are too subtle for this discussion but I am happy to explain. I have to say this was not merely my instinctive view, I know a number of people associated with Scottish football and their finances who had also arrived at this conclusion.
 
I have analysed the available filed accounts of each club in the bottom three divisions of the SPFL. I have excluded the Premier League primarily because they received loans instead of grants, and so are not comparable to Partick Thistle, nor the other teams in the bottom three divisions
 
Here are some highlights from the analysis I have done.-
 
In the first year of Covid, PTFC made an operating loss of £130k. This assumes no support from 3BC, so in reality that is the best case underlying result of PTFC for that accounting year.
In that same year, of the other non-Premier League teams, 19 made profits, 9 made losses. Some of the losses were reduced losses, ie better than the result for the year before, or the loss was a small quantum.  Only 3 teams in those divisions had a higher operating loss than PTFC (Queens Park, Inverness CT, and Morton).
I also analysed cash – 24 teams increased their cash reserves in 2020, whilst 4 saw their cash reserves deteriorate. Only Dunfermline had a larger decrease in cash than PTFC in 2020 from those divisions.
 
We can move onto the second year of Covid – the one which aligns to the recent TBC accounts which stimulated the latest outbreak of this debate.
 
Without support from TBC, PTFC would have a loss of £530k in 2021. (We did have their support though so that loss would never have occurred but it speaks to our culture and our future sustainability). 
 
Of the 2021 accounts filed so far, 10 clubs show profits and a single one shows a loss of you adjust for tbc support – PTFC. Among the clubs making profits, 4 were in the same division as PTFC that season. Aside from our operating loss of £530k, the next poorest result from that division filed so far is Falkirk (PROFIT of £112k).  Forfar, East Fife and Clyde have also filed results showing even larger profits for that year. 
 
Again, I think we should look at cash. Of the 11 clubs who have already filed their 2021 accounts from the bottom three divisions, 10 show an increase in cash over the two year period since Covid has been so beneficial to Scottish football finances beyond the Premier League. Only a solitary one shows a net decrease in cash reserves over the two years. The one which does is PTFC who show a decrease of £43k over the two year period. For full context, here is how everyone else got on :
 
Club
Increase or Decrease over two years
Amount
 
 
 
PTFC
DECREASE
(£43k) after at least £530k support from TBC
 
 
 
Stirling
INCREASE
£192k
Elgin City
INCREASE
£228k
Forfar
INCREASE
£276k
East Fife
INCREASE
£227k
Alloa
INCREASE
£300k
Clyde
INCREASE
£309k
Falkirk
INCREASE
£583k
Dunfermline
INCREASE
£812k
QOS
INCREASE
£779k
Raith
INCREASE
£352k
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Whilst cash is not profit, it can arise from various sources, I do think this is further evidence that Covid has not in fact affected spfl clubs adversely which is a narrative some have been keen to make re ptfc. I also think that it also shows other clubs are coming out of covid better positioned in cash terms for the future. 

That's quite simply astonishing, I'd never thought (had time) to do a comparison. Thank you for providing that, that's a superb insight and if I wasn't concerned before, I now am.

As has already been said, where on earth is the money going!? I do feel overpaying for players and wages could be part of it. However, saying that, it doesn't fully wash. Brian Graham was on Jagzone (I think) recently, mentioning how much of a cut in wages it was to go from County to Thistle, whilst this could be a bad example given County and overpaying wages is probably commonplace, for me it doesn't immediately indicate we're pushing the boat out for players and I'd have thought BG would have been one of the highest earners. 

You didn't happen to do any analysis/comparison of our wages, salaries or dividends by any chance? 

Edited March 24, 2022 by thistledo

[Bishop Briggs]

1 hour ago, Nightmare said:

Appreciate the details @Jaffaboy - it all paints a pretty alarming picture of what's going on behind the scenes at the club.

My main issue is: where is the money going? How can we be losing more money than just about everyone else around us? On paper the squad doesn't look like it would be overly expensive - if anything we probably have just about the exact calibre of team you'd expect with the 3rd/4th highest budget in the league that I assume we have. They're certainly not spending any cash on the stadium, which is turning into a crumbling wreck.

The only two things I can really think of that are that either the squad we have is vastly overpaid relative to their ability, or money is somehow getting funneled out of the club and into someone else's pockets (no prizes for guessing who the prime suspect here would be). Either way, whether it's just incompetence or something a bit more sinister, neither situation is particularly positive.

If true, it could explain the refusal to allow TJF and its professional advisers to undertake due diligence.

[Jacky1990]

Fantastic analysis @Jaffaboy

Apologies for my ignorance, but do those numbers account for the money we receive from QP for the groundshare? Seems incredible we have a revenue source others dont have yet find ourselves losing significantly more than our rivals.

Very worrying times