The Partick Thistle thread

[Fuctifano]

Second one against the orcs was probably the most annoying even though the game was pretty much a dead rubber, to do it once against them was sickening, to do it twice in one season was go home and go to bed territory, even at 2 in the afternoon. 

Without wanting to drag politics into the thread, the St Mirren one at firhill on the Friday night rounded off a pretty dire 24 hours for anyone on the wrong side of the indyref result. I got top 5 of all time drunk after that game. 

[mrcat1990]

I got top 5 of all time drunk after that game. 

After it I did the worst mephadrone known to man and had a three day comedown and nosebleed. Rounded off a grim few days.

[thistledo]

Missed the game yesterday and absolutely thank f**k. Anything other than a win against Hamilton and I can very much see us finishing bottom.

Losing both the *** games in the manner we did last season absolutely infuriated me.

So rough today went absolutely tonto on it after seeing we lost.

[Fuctifano]

FWIW, with the top 6 looking fairly well set at the moment following Killie's win yesterday I had a look at the post-split fixtures if it stays as is.

In this case we'll likely be going to St Johnstone for a 3rd time (4th in all competitions!) this season*- in recent years this would have been dismal news but it's probably the away ground we've had that best record at since promotion.

*workings in below spoiler for corrections to be  pointed out

Spoiler

 

Edited February 18, 2018 by Fuctifano

[Nightmare]

If we do end up going to Perth for a 3rd league visit, that’s not too disheartening at all, as we’ve been pretty good there in the last few seasons.

Home to Well is a positive as well - imagine we had to go to Fir Park needing a result.

If those are the post-split fixtures, they’re almost ideal. 3 home games and 1 away game where we’ve got a good record. The blip would be Dens where we were stinking earlier in the season, but 4 “favourable” fixtures from 5 is positive to take.

[Cerberus]

The thing I’m most looking forward to next season is getting papped out the Challenge Cup by some Welsh part time mob.

[Pie Of The Month]

12 hours ago, Cerberus said:

The thing I’m most looking forward to next season is getting papped out the Challenge Cup by some Welsh part time mob.

I'd take that as long as it was away. 

A Championship with Inverness, Queen of the South, possibly Ross County and Ayr plus the potential for a decent away tie in the Challenge Cup is about the only thing to look forward to about going down.

[Rednyella]

I managed to listen to the Jagzone interview of Archie now the dust has settled on the game Saturday. In my eyes our loss to a mediocre and clearly inferior team was down to the manager. In the second half almost everyone I spoke to who was at the game or watched it on Jagzone as I did saw that our returning injured players needed replaced an hour in but Archie in his post match interview blamed the team for not “seeing the game out.” I agree the team did a poor job last 20 mins, but the manager should have recognized that Woods and Booth were shot, the legs had gone, and we had an incredibly strong bench to deal with replacing them. Penrice for Booth, Barton for Woods and to continue to stretch the play, as Storey was effective we had both Lawless or Spittal. Instead Archie decides to take off Storey and Erskine our two most creative players. Play Blair in a less offense role and takes off Storey who wad the full back in his pocket.

The only player Dundee had that was a threat was Murray. Everyone could see it. It was glaring. Nullify him by bringing on Penrice to mark him out game and we’d have had 3 points. Murray minute by minute was getting more joy. Archie mentioned this but really did nothing to address it. Instead said defense should have dealt with it better.

Woods looked like he was injured. He wobbled along in the second half, after a good first, but clearly needed protecting. I don’t think it was McCanns great subs that won Dundee that game. It was Archie not recognizing what was happening on the field. He should own up to the players to take the heat off them as I thought for most of game especially first half they played Dundee off the park. We should have been 3-0 up. That I do agree with Archie on. Our inability to score goals to punish teams is a massive weakness. We’ve done it against Saints this season and that’s it really.

So my question is, with the best squad of players I’ve seen in my 35 years of life as a Jags fan, is Archie able to succeed and take us on? Yes we managed top 6 last year but his record when you drill down isn’t that impressive. We are almost always guaranteed to lose to top 6 clubs especially OF. Stinking record! We have one of the worst cup records in the country. He’s under achieving with the squad of players he has in my eyes. I think the man deserved all the time he’s had but my support of him is beginning to subdue. With the players we have I believe, for example, if a coach like Steve Clarke was in charge we’d be in top 6 presently. Injuries have a played a role but we’ve got a worse record with players back than we did picking up points pre-break.

I think he missed an opportunity in the interview to own up to his failures tactically at weekend and he didn’t take it. That would have helped take stress of lose off players. Due to that I’m not sure we’ll win against Accies Saturday. I think we’re in serious trouble. I pray I’m wrong and we can learn and bounce back. How did he think that game Saturday would suit Doolz in the last 10-15mins? He didn’t touch the ball!
I’m still annoyed as we are so much better than that mob. It was night and day in terms of abilities.

[Highlandmagyar 2nd String]

4 hours ago, Rednyella said:

I managed to listen to the Jagzone interview of Archie now the dust has settled on the game Saturday. In my eyes our loss to a mediocre and clearly inferior team was down to the manager. In the second half almost everyone I spoke to who was at the game or watched it on Jagzone as I did saw that our returning injured players needed replaced an hour in but Archie in his post match interview blamed the team for not “seeing the game out.” I agree the team did a poor job last 20 mins, but the manager should have recognized that Woods and Booth were shot, the legs had gone, and we had an incredibly strong bench to deal with replacing them. Penrice for Booth, Barton for Woods and to continue to stretch the play, as Storey was effective we had both Lawless or Spittal. Instead Archie decides to take off Storey and Erskine our two most creative players. Play Blair in a less offense role and takes off Storey who wad the full back in his pocket.

The only player Dundee had that was a threat was Murray. Everyone could see it. It was glaring. Nullify him by bringing on Penrice to mark him out game and we’d have had 3 points. Murray minute by minute was getting more joy. Archie mentioned this but really did nothing to address it. Instead said defense should have dealt with it better.

Woods looked like he was injured. He wobbled along in the second half, after a good first, but clearly needed protecting. I don’t think it was McCanns great subs that won Dundee that game. It was Archie not recognizing what was happening on the field. He should own up to the players to take the heat off them as I thought for most of game especially first half they played Dundee off the park. We should have been 3-0 up. That I do agree with Archie on. Our inability to score goals to punish teams is a massive weakness. We’ve done it against Saints this season and that’s it really.

So my question is, with the best squad of players I’ve seen in my 35 years of life as a Jags fan, is Archie able to succeed and take us on? Yes we managed top 6 last year but his record when you drill down isn’t that impressive. We are almost always guaranteed to lose to top 6 clubs especially OF. Stinking record! We have one of the worst cup records in the country. He’s under achieving with the squad of players he has in my eyes. I think the man deserved all the time he’s had but my support of him is beginning to subdue. With the players we have I believe, for example, if a coach like Steve Clarke was in charge we’d be in top 6 presently. Injuries have a played a role but we’ve got a worse record with players back than we did picking up points pre-break.

I think he missed an opportunity in the interview to own up to his failures tactically at weekend and he didn’t take it. That would have helped take stress of lose off players. Due to that I’m not sure we’ll win against Accies Saturday. I think we’re in serious trouble. I pray I’m wrong and we can learn and bounce back. How did he think that game Saturday would suit Doolz in the last 10-15mins? He didn’t touch the ball!
I’m still annoyed as we are so much better than that mob. It was night and day in terms of abilities.

Good post. There is no doubt that we have the strongest squad in decades. On paper I would say we are stronger than Dundee,Accies, Ross County and St.Johnstone, but on the park we aren't showing it. Injuries aside we have had a bad season and I think Archie is struggling. He comes accross as tactically naive. Even if we survive I think we need a change.

[Thistle_do_nicely]

Doubtless someone will end up pointing out that I've made some daft basic data entry error along the line but, assuming I've managed not to do any double counting or silly mistakes with the formulas, I put together a wee spreadsheet that makes grim reading. A couple of snips of my feeble attempt at being @Fuctifano below, for anyone interested, hope they're legible :

(all goal times taken that were used are from the PTFC website so there may be some errors along the way, but I'd assume its more accurate than the Beeb; stats from the above graphic apply to league fixtures only)

The above doesn't include cup games but maybe worth mentioning that we did score late through Elliot against Stranraer and from Doolan against Rangers to take the cup game to ET (but, quelle shock horror, the arse collapsed in the latter despite Doolan's 90th min goal and we lost 3-1)

We've lost 12 points in total from goals on 76+ minutes (Ross County away to draw 1-1 with an 85th min Schalk goal; Motherwell away to draw 1-1 from Ciftci on about 85 mins; Aberdeen at home to go from 3-3 to lose 4-3 through a late Rooney goal; Dorrans goal in the 2-2 against Rangers was on 76 mins according to the OS so that's squeezed in; Hearts phantom Callachan goal in the 1-1 at Firhill on roughly 80 mins; Murray's double for Dundee in the 2-1 on Saturday just there on 85 and 90)

By contrast, by my count we've only salvaged 3 points from goals on 76+ minutes; the late winner against Dundee got us an extra 2 points and the late equaliser at Tynecastle.  Edited to add: I had to check for the sake of my own sanity for the Dundee game because I was sure both goals were in the last 10 mins, but the OS has Edwards goal down as being on the 74th minute. Both these late goals were rendered as being pretty much contra entries by the reverse fixtures tbh. An honourable mention due to Connor Sammon for his late goal against County in the 2-0 win at Firhill, saved a twitchy last few minutes at least.

Netting off our points gained from goals we've scored in 76+ mins against points we've lost from goals conceded on 76+ mins indicates that we've lost 9 points overall.

-

We've lost 20 points from winning positions (! : we led Hibs 1-0 via Erskine first day of the season and lost 3-1, we led Aberdeen 2-1 in the 4-3 loss, we led County 1-0 and drew 1-1, led Rangers 2-1 and drew 2-2 albeit with Erskine's red card mitigating things, 1-0 up to 1-1 against Hearts with the phantom Callaghan goal, 1-0 up on Celtic from the Sammon penalty to lose 2-1, 1-0 to 1-1 against Motherwell through Ciftci, and finally 1-0 to 1-2 against Dundee on Saturday).

By contrast, by my count we've only salvaged 5 points this season from losing positions; we salvaged a draw from Hearts away which sort of balanced out with the home draw against them, came back from 1-0 down to ultimately draw 2-2 against Rangers, and beat Dundee 2-1 at home from 1-0 down, thanks largely to luck and a Cerny pen save... which as per the Hearts game pretty much balanced out in the end.

Netting off the clubs points gained from losing positions vs. the clubs points lost from winning positions, we've chucked away 15 points this season.

I also had a look at our margins of victory and defeat for all wins and losses:

(cup and league margins of victory and defeat. Also technically lost on penalties in a draw with Livingston, but that isn't included in the above stats, however the cup loss AET to Rangers is) edit: just noticed there that there's some rounding discrepancies. Serves me right for using an Excel knockoff tbh

Would seem pretty clear that teams are better at killing games off against us when they're at home than we are against them; 6 out of 9 defeats away are by 2 or more goals (Hibs, Motherwell, Kilmarnock, Rangers, Dundee, Celtic) whereas we've only won home games by 2 clear goals or more twice this season (Ross County and the cup game against St Mirren, who are in the league below) and my arse is still twitching from the 3-2 Motherwell game.

TL;DR : This season by the numbers - it ain't pretty.

Edited February 20, 2018 by Thistle_do_nicely

[forameus]

10 hours ago, Thistle_do_nicely said:

Doubtless someone will end up pointing out that I've made some daft basic data entry error along the line but, assuming I've managed not to do any double counting or silly mistakes with the formulas, I put together a wee spreadsheet that makes grim reading. A couple of snips of my feeble attempt at being @Fuctifano below, for anyone interested, hope they're legible :

(all goal times taken that were used are from the PTFC website so there may be some errors along the way, but I'd assume its more accurate than the Beeb; stats from the above graphic apply to league fixtures only)

The above doesn't include cup games but maybe worth mentioning that we did score late through Elliot against Stranraer and from Doolan against Rangers to take the cup game to ET (but, quelle shock horror, the arse collapsed in the latter despite Doolan's 90th min goal and we lost 3-1)

We've lost 12 points in total from goals on 76+ minutes (Ross County away to draw 1-1 with an 85th min Schalk goal; Motherwell away to draw 1-1 from Ciftci on about 85 mins; Aberdeen at home to go from 3-3 to lose 4-3 through a late Rooney goal; Dorrans goal in the 2-2 against Rangers was on 76 mins according to the OS so that's squeezed in; Hearts phantom Callachan goal in the 1-1 at Firhill on roughly 80 mins; Murray's double for Dundee in the 2-1 on Saturday just there on 85 and 90)

By contrast, by my count we've only salvaged 3 points from goals on 76+ minutes; the late winner against Dundee got us an extra 2 points and the late equaliser at Tynecastle. Both were rendered as being pretty much contra entries by the reverse fixtures tbh. An honourable mention due to Connor Sammon for his late goal against County in the 2-0 win at Firhill, saved a twitchy last few minutes at least.

Netting off our points gained from goals we've scored in 76+ mins against points we've lost from goals conceded on 76+ mins indicates that we've lost 9 points overall.

-

We've lost 20 points from winning positions (! : we led Hibs 1-0 via Erskine first day of the season and lost 3-1, we led Aberdeen 2-1 in the 4-3 loss, we led County 1-0 and drew 1-1, led Rangers 2-1 and drew 2-2 albeit with Erskine's red card mitigating things, 1-0 up to 1-1 against Hearts with the phantom Callaghan goal, 1-0 up on Celtic from the Sammon penalty to lose 2-1, 1-0 to 1-1 against Motherwell through Ciftci, and finally 1-0 to 1-2 against Dundee on Saturday).

By contrast, by my count we've only salvaged 5 points this season from losing positions; we salvaged a draw from Hearts away which sort of balanced out with the home draw against them, came back from 1-0 down to ultimately draw 2-2 against Rangers, and beat Dundee 2-1 at home from 1-0 down, thanks largely to luck and a Cerny pen save... which as per the Hearts game pretty much balanced out in the end.

Netting off the clubs points gained from losing positions vs. the clubs points lost from winning positions, we've chucked away 15 points this season.

I also had a look at our margins of victory and defeat for all wins and losses:

(cup and league margins of victory and defeat. Also technically lost on penalties in a draw with Livingston, but that isn't included in the above stats, however the cup loss AET to Rangers is) edit: just noticed there that there's some rounding discrepancies. Serves me right for using an Excel knockoff tbh

Would seem pretty clear that teams are better at killing games off against us when they're at home than we are against them; 6 out of 9 defeats away are by 2 or more goals (Hibs, Motherwell, Kilmarnock, Rangers, Dundee, Celtic) whereas we've only won home games by 2 clear goals or more twice this season (Ross County and the cup game against St Mirren, who are in the league below) and my arse is still twitching from the 3-2 Motherwell game.

TL;DR : This season by the numbers - it ain't pretty.

 

But seriously, a good visualisation of what's going wrong.  If there was one woolly concept I could try to apply to Thistle it's that if we go ahead, we just seem to revert to hanging on, even if we could easily be dominating.  That definitely needs to be addressed.  Are the players being told to protect the lead at all costs and be reactive, or are they doing that because that's the type of players they are?  

 

[Armand 2]

We don't sign any central midfielders in pre-season, meaning we can't play Barton in the position where he won Player of the Year.

We sign a centre mid who then almost immediately gets injured, meaning we still can't play Barton at sweeper.

We play three games with Barton at sweeper and take 7 out of 9 points, keeping two clean sheets in the process (Hamilton, County, Motherwell).

We finally have fit central midfielders available, and we change formation rendering Barton a substitute centre mid. 

[thistledo]

4 hours ago, Armand 2 said:

We don't sign any central midfielders in pre-season, meaning we can't play Barton in the position where he won Player of the Year.

We sign a centre mid who then almost immediately gets injured, meaning we still can't play Barton at sweeper.

We play three games with Barton at sweeper and take 7 out of 9 points, keeping two clean sheets in the process (Hamilton, County, Motherwell).

We finally have fit central midfielders available, and we change formation rendering Barton a substitute centre mid. 

You've pretty much summarised my thoughts over the last couple of weeks. I think we can all conclude Barton isn't a centre mid or at least not the centre mid we need right now. Far better in defence and I'd say overall the defence is far better when he is in it. I'm still puzzled McCarthy got a start against the likes of Celtic in centre mid, but yet Archie wouldn't play him rather than Barton in earlier games in the season. 

Based on how many points we've lost from winning positions do we need some sort of sports psychologist in the coaching staff for a while. You can see such an obvious switch in the team as soon as it gets towards the end of the game and we're only winning by one. It's such a panic situation and no one seems to be able to lead the team out of it. Almost kind of miss Azeez for those moments he could run away with the ball or hold it up. 

Also, does anyone know what the story is with Bannigan? 

[Nightmare]

29 minutes ago, thistledo said:

I'm still puzzled McCarthy got a start against the likes of Celtic in centre mid, but yet Archie wouldn't play him rather than Barton in earlier games in the season. 

Playing the young guys almost exclusively in Celtic/Rangers games another one of Archie’s bizarre habits. Used to do this with Div Wilson, has been doing it with Andy McCarthy for the past couple of years and seems to be starting it with James Penrice as well.

McCarthy has really acquitted himself pretty well in these games as well, but for whatever reason isn’t trusted against the likes of Dundee or Motherwell.

Edited February 20, 2018 by Nightmare

[thistledo]

32 minutes ago, Nightmare said:

Playing the young guys almost exclusively in Celtic/Rangers games another one of Archie’s bizarre habits. Used to do this with Div Wilson, has been doing it with Andy McCarthy for the past couple of years and seems to be starting it with James Penrice as well.

McCarthy has really acquitted himself pretty well in these games as well, but for whatever reason isn’t trusted against the likes of Dundee or Motherwell.

Completely agree that it's bizarre and in that McCarthy has acquitted himself well. I've been impressed whenever I've seen him play. I've not been impressed with Barton in midfield, in any game I've seen him feature there. More game time for McCarthy I think would be of great value to him and the team. Penrice as well could do with a run in the team, either at LB or in midfield, Livingston fans seemed very impressed with him at left mid. 

[mrcat1990]

Seems to be a case against Celtic and Rangers of "Ah well gonna lose anyway so throw the waens in at the deep end and see what happens".

[Nightmare]

Probably. Which is the kind of mentality which explains we've got the worst record against the pair of them out of just about every team in the top two divisions.

[Hammer Jag]

When you read over the last few posts relating to Barton, McCarthy and our approach to games against the Old Firm, you start to realise that Archibald has had a bit of a shocker this season.

This has been the first season since taking over where he’s fell way below expectations in my opinion. He can count himself fortunate that much of our support still believe we’re living in the £500 p/w, Gerry Collins biscuit tin days, with the lowest budget in the league.

[Sting777]

Totally agree re Andy McCarthy. I find it astonishing that he is picked for most of the Celtic games but no other ones. Can't fathom that out. He would have been the ideal person to bring on against Dundee when it was clear Osman and Woods were running on empty. As for Barton, I will be surprised if he is here next season.  It's clear he is too slow for a midfield position in this league,  but just why he isn't playing in central defence is a total mystery to me. Wouldn't think he is gonna be happy sitting on the bench!

[Nightmare]

26 minutes ago, Sting777 said:

Totally agree re Andy McCarthy. I find it astonishing that he is picked for most of the Celtic games but no other ones. Can't fathom that out. He would have been the ideal person to bring on against Dundee when it was clear Osman and Woods were running on empty. As for Barton, I will be surprised if he is here next season.  It's clear he is too slow for a midfield position in this league,  but just why he isn't playing in central defence is a total mystery to me. Wouldn't think he is gonna be happy sitting on the bench!

Because Archie seems to believe that 4-2-3-1 is the natural formation that fits this squad, despite the fact that 3-5-2 seems to have yielded far better results in the past couple of years.  And of course, Barton works much better in a back 3 than a back 4. If we are playing 4-2-3-1, I'd say it's probably the correct choice to omit Barton from the lineup; he's not better than Keown or Cargill as one of the CB pairing, and he clearly hasn't worked as a CM either.

The problem for me is that right now I don't see why we're playing 4-2-3-1 at all. I'm not trying to shoehorn Barton into the squad either - I think he's been pretty poor for a good part of this season. But it's a results business and we're insistent on going with a formation where our results are poorer.