#BothVotesSNP

[Granny Danger]

Absolutely this - independence is not the goal of the likes of the SSP and Greens but a vehicle to another goal.

Independence in itself is not the goal for lots of voters too.  Just as those seeking a fairer and more just society see that being more acheivable in an Independent Scotland, so too will the Greens see their objectives as being more attainable.

[Wee Willie]

Independence in itself is not the goal for lots of voters too.  Just as those seeking a fairer and more just society see that being more acheivable in an Independent Scotland, so too will the Greens see their objectives as being more attainable.

Therefore Independence IS the goal until we achieve it then the rest hopefully follows.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

Therefore Independence IS the goal until we achieve it then the rest hopefully follows.

You're confusing "more achievable" with "only achievable".

Which leads you to confuse "a goal" with "the goal"

[Wee Willie]

You're confusing "more achievable" with "only achievable".

Which leads you to confuse "a goal" with "the goal"

You're the one that's confused.

The SNP (or any Scottish government) can't do much with one hand tied behind it's back.

Once Indy happens then it's Utopia (or at least Nirvana) 

[vikingTON]

Actually the SNP dropping constituencies will generally work in the Greens' favour.

Splitting the anti-Tory vote further here in Edinburgh Central allowed Ruth Davidson in which freed up a list seat and list seats are currently the real target for the Greens.

They may have missed a trick by not going #bothvotesgreen

Not if voters who support the sound SNP central administration are reminded of the Greens' antics in Edinburgh Central, combined with any excessive displays of brinkmanship from the party in Holyrood. And then duly opt not to touch the Greens with a bargepole next time round. The Greens, for now at least, have a very small core support and are highly dependent upon the goodwill of others in the Yes movement. That could well change over time, but they currently run the risk of being punished and practically shut out again as they were in 2011. So any calculation of what is the Greens' explicit self-interest now is not necessarily in the best interests of the party at all in the medium term.

[Mr Bairn]

Therefore Independence IS the goal until we achieve it then the rest hopefully follows.

 

Aye, maybe for you. The likes of the Greens will continue to push their ideals within the union. They'll vote Yes when the time comes but they aren't going to sit on the corners and throw shit at the walls moaning about independence.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

You're the one that's confused.

The SNP (or any Scottish government) can't do much with one hand tied behind it's back.

Once Indy happens then it's Utopia (or at least Nirvana)

GD was talking about voters in general not the first five or ten of "the forty five" who have a relatively utopian visions of an independent future

For those of us that think Independence is a good, or at least credible, option but not a Panacea for all the nations ills there are other factors to base our choice on.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

Not if voters who support the sound SNP central administration are reminded of the Greens' antics in Edinburgh Central, combined with any excessive displays of brinkmanship from the party in Holyrood. And then duly opt not to touch the Greens with a bargepole next time round. The Greens, for now at least, have a very small core support and are highly dependent upon the goodwill of others in the Yes movement. That could well change over time, but they currently run the risk of being punished and practically shut out again as they were in 2011. So any calculation of what is the Greens' explicit self-interest now is not necessarily in the best interests of the party at all in the medium term.

I'm in Edinburgh central

What "antics" are you on about?

[vikingTON]

Try reading the thread fully for context.

[Wee Willie]

GD was talking about voters in general not the first five or ten of "the forty five" who have a relatively utopian visions of an independent future

For those of us that think Independence is a good, or at least credible, option but not a Panacea for all the nations ills there are other factors to base our choice on.

ffs.  It's called poetic licence

[Granny Danger]

GD was talking about voters in general not the first five or ten of "the forty five" who have a relatively utopian visions of an independent future

For those of us that think Independence is a good, or at least credible, option but not a Panacea for all the nations ills there are other factors to base our choice on.

You're wasting your time arguing with that guy. He's a fucking rocket.

Fortunately most supporters of independence recognise that it is not utopia or even the gateway to utopia but is, hopefully, a means to a better end.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

ffs.  It's called poetic licence

 

I know.

I was using it too

[Wee Willie]

I know.

I was using it too

Fair do's

[topcat(The most tip top)]

Try reading the thread fully for context.

 

I've been here since early doors.

 

I've appreciated you explaining the culture of Inverclyde in the past so let me tell you a bit about where I'm from

 

Edinburgh Central is arguably the best territory for the Greens in Scotland

If the greens are going to stand constituency candidates anywhere than Edinburgh Central and Glasgow Kelvin are the natural places.

This is the first time they've stood a constituency MP so there's no definitive form guide.

There are no wards that are completely within Edinburgh Central but the last council election results for wards that are partially covered are

Fountainbridge/Craiglockhart (shared with Edinburgh Southern): 24.07% (1st)

Southside/Newington (shared with Edinburgh Southern):19.97% (1st)

Meadows/Morningside (shared with Edinburgh Southern): 19.75 (2nd behind Tories)

City Centre (shared with Edinburgh Eastern) : 17.06% (3rd behind Tories & labour)

Inverleith (shared with Edinburgh Northern and Leith and Edinburgh Western): 14.92% (3rd behind Tories & labour)

Corstorphine/Murrayfield (shared with Edinburgh Western): 6.11%

Sighthill/Gorgie (shared with Edinburgh Pentlands and Edinburgh Southern):8.2%

For comparison their best performances in Glasgow were 17.62% in Hillhead and 14.71% in Partick West

The average for the 7 Wards that overlap with Edinburgh Central is 15.73%

And my local knowledge would lead me to think that they were stronger in the bits of those wards that are in Edinburgh Central.

Last Thursday they got 13.6% in the constituency vote.

SNP Supporters are seemingly reading people that split their votes SNP/Green as natural SNP supporters who used their second vote tactically as opposed to wasting it

In fact in Edinburgh Central there's probably more of them that were natural Green voters using their first vote tactically to try and keep the Tory out as opposed to wasting it.

Like Glasgow's west end this bit of the world has a lot of middle class people with "social consciences" a lot of Students and Academics, but unlike it's counterpart in the west there are a lot of people from the "rest of the UK" demographic who are less likely to be SNP. Also unlike Glasgow's west end it's got some seriously wealthy bits which gives the Tories a decent shot at it on a good day.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

Two extra piece of information

 

1) The Greens got more votes in Edinburgh Central this time that Iain McGill did for the Tories last time

 

2) In the run up to that campaign I poured half a pint of beer over Iain McGill's head in the Diggers after a Hearts match.

[Thumper]

The Greens, for now at least, have a very small core support and are highly dependent upon the goodwill of others in the Yes movement. That could well change over time, but they currently run the risk of being punished and practically shut out again as they were in 2011.

 

By whom? It's been pretty well established that "both votes SNP" was broadly successful, particularly among people who would have preferred to vote RISE for instance. I've yet to hear from anyone who voted Green and regretted it, yet. The Herald is today stating that the Greens will support Named Person, which already means the knickerwetters have lost one potential talking point.

[Savage Henry]

Independence in itself is not the goal for lots of voters too.  Just as those seeking a fairer and more just society see that being more acheivable in an Independent Scotland, so too will the Greens see their objectives as being more attainable.

 

Correct.  The case of the SNP can only truly be made when they convince those self-same voters that their end goal is not independence but a fairer society.

 

The lunatic fringe like the "Rev" and those attacking the greens have absolutely no interest in a fairer society.  They just want what is in their own perceived interest.  

[Wee Willie]

Correct.  The case of the SNP can only truly be made when they convince those self-same voters that their end goal is not independence but  and a fairer society.

 

The lunatic fringe like the "Rev" and those attacking the greens have absolutely no interest in a fairer society.  They just want what is in their own perceived interest.  

Surely the idea is that one (hopefully) follows the other.

With the status quo we will never have a fair society.

It will take independence for that to happen.

Therefore it's a must.

[Savage Henry]

Surely the idea is that one (hopefully) follows the other.

With the status quo we will never have a fair society.

It will take independence for that to happen.

Therefore it's a must.

That's a logical fallacy. Your premise necessitates that conclusion. Which is fine, as far as it goes, because the two may be inextricably linked. It's a legitimate point of view.

My issue is with those who argue for independence while paying lip service to the latter.

[Loondave1]

Correct. The case of the SNP can only truly be made when they convince those self-same voters that their end goal is not independence but a fairer society.

The lunatic fringe like the "Rev" and those attacking the greens have absolutely no interest in a fairer society. They just want what is in their own perceived interest.

I think the SNP roasters should just declare the Greens " the green tories" from now on in their usual tiresome style about anyone who disagrees in any shape or form with SNP policies.