The long slow deterioration of Celtic PLC

[ICTChris]

Also, what does the OP have against Peter Lawell specifically?

 

In the 13 years that Lawell has been in charge Celtic have won

 

8 league titles

5 Scottish Cups

3 League cups

 

In European competition

 

UEFA Champions League group stages - 7 times

Last 16 of the Champions League - 3 times

 

Included in this are victories over Barcelona, AC Milan, Benfica and Manchester Utd

 

Since Lawell took over Celtic have also built a new training facility and in financial terms are able to cover their debts, such as they are.

 

 

That's the case for the 'Lawell' defence and I'm playing devil's advocate here.  What would the OP and other unsatisfied Celtic fans like to see a replacement for Peter Lawell do differently and why don't they like him and the current board?

[The_Kincardine]

For the last four years all they've only cared about Rangers while ignoring their own club,

That The Mawkits are overly interested in us is an excellent point.  Sake, they even have groups of fans coming to Ibrox to sit in with the away support!

 

So to blame them for being complacent gloryhunters is a half truth.  They are simply not that interested in Celtic any more.

[StreetwiseHercules]

Also, what does the OP have against Peter Lawell specifically?

In the 13 years that Lawell has been in charge Celtic have won

8 league titles

5 Scottish Cups

3 League cups

In European competition

UEFA Champions League group stages - 7 times

Last 16 of the Champions League - 3 times

Included in this are victories over Barcelona, AC Milan, Benfica and Manchester Utd

Since Lawell took over Celtic have also built a new training facility and in financial terms are able to cover their debts, such as they are.

That's the case for the 'Lawell' defence and I'm playing devil's advocate here. What would the OP and other unsatisfied Celtic fans like to see a replacement for Peter Lawell do differently and why don't they like him and the current board?

Chris, other than meaningless and hollow league titles, how much of that list have been achieved in the last 5 or 6 years?

He has been in the job far, far too long and what we are seeing now is ever diminishing returns in every sense. On the park. In the stands. On the balance sheet.

The brand overall is also looking very tired. He has been responsible for poor managerial appointments and has interfered with every manager, signing players managers didn't want and refusing to allow managers to et the players they do want.

He's a shameless and glib liar who used to promised marquee signings this and blue chip signings that.and he's a knobend who used to pander to and manipulate the lowest denominator in our support with his snide and unneccesary digs at rangers.

He refuses to pay the living wage.

He backs Lord Livingston along with that p***k Bankier.

He treats the Celtic support with barely concealed contempt.

He has an ego the size of the Hibs goalie's arse. His leak about Arsenal wanting to sign him was hilarious.

I could go on and on and on all day about Lawwell.

[williemillersmoustache]

For the last four years all they've only cared about Rangers while ignoring their own club, every recent Celtic agm has been about Rangers while the Celtic board got an easy ride.

The sheep have been improving and gradually building confidence over the last few years, can they go further?

Arts have the makings of a good team and should be in there again next season.

Rangers should be in amongst those teams and with a few more players brought in, hopefully hit the ground running like arts did.

Could we have a four way fight for the league?

 

 

That The Mawkits are overly interested in us is an excellent point.  Sake, they even have groups of fans coming to Ibrox to sit in with the away support!

 

So to blame them for being complacent gloryhunters is a half truth.  They are simply not that interested in Celtic any more.

 

The Short Sharp Deterioration of The Premiership Forum

[Romeo]

For the last four years all they've only cared about Rangers while ignoring their own club,

 

You ignored your own club so much it was liquidated.

[bennett]

That The Mawkits are overly interested in us is an excellent point.  Sake, they even have groups of fans coming to Ibrox to sit in with the away support!

 

So to blame them for being complacent gloryhunters is a half truth.  They are simply not that interested in Celtic any more.

They've turned up at our agm's, spent tens of thousands over the last 4 years obsessing about Rangers.

Can't say that I blame them, we are afterall more appealing than their own two bit club.

[Sir Rent Dippidy]

The Short Sharp Deterioration of The Premiership Forum

[The_Kincardine]

The Short Sharp Deterioration of The Premiership Forum

What do you know about The Premiership Forum?  You and Ken, the other fleecy clone, are always trying to cozy up to us on the Rangers threads.

 

They've turned up at our agm's, spent tens of thousands over the last 4 years obsessing about Rangers.

 

They've even bought shares in us?  What a cretinous gang they are.  A mediocre team and a CEO who doesn't give a damn about football must surely be nothing more than their just deserts.

[ICTChris]

Chris, other than meaningless and hollow league titles, how much of that list have been achieved in the last 5 or 6 years?

He has been in the job far, far too long and what we are seeing now is ever diminishing returns in every sense. On the park. In the stands. On the balance sheet.

The brand overall is also looking very tired. He has been responsible for poor managerial appointments and has interfered with every manager, signing players managers didn't want and refusing to allow managers to et the players they do want.

He's a shameless and glib liar who used to promised marquee signings this and blue chip signings that.and he's a knobend who used to pander to and manipulate the lowest denominator in our support with his snide and unneccesary digs at rangers.

He refuses to pay the living wage.

He backs Lord Livingston along with that p***k Bankier.

He treats the Celtic support with barely concealed contempt.

He has an ego the size of the Hibs goalie's arse. His leak about Arsenal wanting to sign him was hilarious.

I could go on and on and on all day about Lawwell.

 

There's certainly been a diminishing success rate in Europe for Celtic in the last four or five years, that's a fair point, In fact, now that I've looked it up Celtic have done a notch worse in Europe every year for the last four - last 16 Champions League, group stage Champions League, Europa League knock out, Europa league group stage.  I've often thought that Celtic should've gone stronger for the Europa League but there seems to be a kind of 'meh' attitude about this.

 

In terms of poor management appointments, you'd obviously put Tony Mowbray down as a bad choice, Strachan and Lennon were successful and it looks like Delia is going to be binned as a failure, although I think you can see the logic of the appointment.  Next managerial appointment is huge for Celtic.

 

I don't really follow the ins and outs of the Celtic board but some considering the silence of Lawwel in 2012 when Rangers went into liquidation it's ironic if he has made comments about them subsequently.  I don't really know anything about the guys you mentioned so couldn't say either way.

 

I think it almost seems like there's a malaise among some Celtic fans - rather than having specifics to protest about, like in the Sack the Board era, it's more a feeling that things aren't quite right but there aren't really any concrete steps to be taken to improve things.  Also, if things change you might get someone who pursues the same goals as Lawell but doesn't do as successful a job.

 

How would you like to see Celtic change and develop? 

[The Mantis]

That Terry Cassidy was a p***k.

[kingjoey]

What do you know about The Premiership Forum?  You and Ken, the other fleecy clone, are always trying to cozy up to us on the Rangers threads.

 

They've even bought shares in us?  What a cretinous gang they are.  A mediocre team and a CEO who doesn't give a damn about football must surely be nothing more than their just deserts.

What are you doing on the Premiership Forum then?

[StreetwiseHercules]

There's certainly been a diminishing success rate in Europe for Celtic in the last four or five years, that's a fair point, In fact, now that I've looked it up Celtic have done a notch worse in Europe every year for the last four - last 16 Champions League, group stage Champions League, Europa League knock out, Europa league group stage.  I've often thought that Celtic should've gone stronger for the Europa League but there seems to be a kind of 'meh' attitude about this.

 

In terms of poor management appointments, you'd obviously put Tony Mowbray down as a bad choice, Strachan and Lennon were successful and it looks like Delia is going to be binned as a failure, although I think you can see the logic of the appointment.  Next managerial appointment is huge for Celtic.

 

I don't really follow the ins and outs of the Celtic board but some considering the silence of Lawwel in 2012 when Rangers went into liquidation it's ironic if he has made comments about them subsequently.  I don't really know anything about the guys you mentioned so couldn't say either way.

 

I think it almost seems like there's a malaise among some Celtic fans - rather than having specifics to protest about, like in the Sack the Board era, it's more a feeling that things aren't quite right but there aren't really any concrete steps to be taken to improve things.  Also, if things change you might get someone who pursues the same goals as Lawell but doesn't do as successful a job.

 

How would you like to see Celtic change and develop? 

I would like Celtic to end it's PLC status and become fully member owned. It should be a not for profit, with all surpluses invested back into the club in the interests of its members. The club should exist for one purpose, sporting endeavour. Not stakeholder dividends. And the members would have a semblance of a say on the strategic direction of the club. 

 

The disconnect which has ripped the heart out of Celtic is the fact that it no longer a club in the true sense. It is a cold, hard, soulless corporate entity run by people who do not care about football or the ethos of the club.

[ICTChris]

I would like Celtic to end it's PLC status and become fully member owned. It should be a not for profit, with all surpluses invested back into the club in the interests of its members. The club should exist for one purpose, sporting endeavour. Not stakeholder dividends. And the members would have a semblance of a say on the strategic direction of the club.

The disconnect which has ripped the heart out of Celtic is the fact that it no longer a club in the true sense. It is a cold, hard, soulless corporate entity run by people who do not care about football or the ethos of the club.

I don't think that you would be able to have the success on the pitch you've seen over the past couple of decades under the model you put forward. I also don't think that it has the support of your clubs fans, which it would obviously need to work.

Also, you say that Celtic has changed etc - Celtic had been a Plc for decades. You said earlier you'd like Martin o'Neil back as manager - his success was based on heavy investment in players, funded by the club running at a loss. Would that have happened under a members model? You also said earlier that you didn't like Lawell interfering in management decisions - the most famous member clubs in the world are also the worst for this.

It's an interesting idea though. I think the members club, social enterprise model might be more suited to a club like mine than a club like Celtic. There are difficulties with it, of course.

[StreetwiseHercules]

Fair enough Chris. I'm not too bothered about success on the park.

Member owned models work quite well elsewhere and I think it could work well for Celtic but guaranteed success in terms of trophies is a price worth paying.

[Miguel Sanchez]

I would like Celtic to end it's PLC status and become fully member owned. It should be a not for profit, with all surpluses invested back into the club in the interests of its members. The club should exist for one purpose, sporting endeavour. Not stakeholder dividends. And the members would have a semblance of a say on the strategic direction of the club.

Yes, do this, it sounds hilarious

[ICTChris]

Fair enough Chris. I'm not too bothered about success on the park.

Member owned models work quite well elsewhere and I think it could work well for Celtic but guaranteed success in terms of trophies is a price worth paying.

Obviously nothing guarantees success but I really think that not caring about winning trophies is a minority view, especially a,one fans of clubs like Celtic. Obviously some clubs have moved to fan ownership, along roughly similar lines of what you have suggested, Hearts being the obvious example in Scotland. The difference is that these clubs have done so from positions of financial turmoil. Although they've bounced back amazingly I'm positive most Hearts fans would have accepted some reduced achievements following their administration. Would Celtic fans be happy if they followed your model, got a members club with voting rights but couldn't compete in Europe and lost the title to Rangers? They obviously wouldn't - most want your manager sacked after losing one game to Rangers!

The members clubs abroad are exceptions I think - Barca and Real Madrid are so huge that basically any model would work for them and Athletic Bilbao have that as one of their traditions. I just don't think that form of ownership will take off in Britain, not among the bigger clubs anyway. If it was going to then the ideal opportunity was with Rangers, a club with a huge fan base that could conceivably have moved to a completely new model and made it work. The constant stream of dodgy execs and financial anarchy probably out paid to that though.

Being honest, if to really be part of a club the way you talk about you could get involved with a lower league or junior club, I know guys who support Caley but are involved on the committee or board of local clubs and help the game that way.

[StreetwiseHercules]

Interesting points. It's sad what Celtic have become and I detest the large glory hunting element of our support. These people demand glory and that itself negates glory. For me I care about the manner of victory quite a lot and I also care about the manner of defeat. 

 

I hate to see Celtic teams stuffed full of lazy, overpaid b*****ds capitulating and not caring. It also annoys me to see these same lazy overpaid b*****ds getting away with it and winning games 1-0 while playing terribly. I can easily accept defeats when players care about the team, care about the club a bit and give their all. 

[topcat(The most tip top)]

I hate to see Celtic teams stuffed full of lazy, overpaid b*****ds capitulating and not caring. It also annoys me to see these same lazy overpaid b*****ds getting away with it and winning games 1-0 while playing terribly. I can easily accept defeats when players care about the team, care about the club a bit and give their all.

Maybe following professional football isn't the hobby for you.

Have you considered watching Queens Park?

[djchapsticks]

Interesting points. It's sad what Celtic have become and I detest the large glory hunting element of our support. These people demand glory and that itself negates glory. For me I care about the manner of victory quite a lot and I also care about the manner of defeat. 

 

I hate to see Celtic teams stuffed full of lazy, overpaid b*****ds capitulating and not caring. It also annoys me to see these same lazy overpaid b*****ds getting away with it and winning games 1-0 while playing terribly. I can easily accept defeats when players care about the team, care about the club a bit and give their all. 

 

 

'Long-time lurker' who has always had a look about on the site but never anything to say, then goes on to post nigh on 100 messages in about two days.

 

Classic Magee behaviour.

[StreetwiseHercules]

Long time occasional lurker.