Queen of the South Management Team

[Parkgatequeens]

Fowler and his negativism has made shopping with the bird more exciting on a Saturday afternoon

[Monkey Tennis]

You would still be in the hunt for playoffs had we not went on a frankly ridiculous run lately.

To be honest, we'd be slipping out of that picture anyway at present.

Obviously, we're miles and miles behind you in terms of form over recent games. We're also way behind St Mirren and Morton over that spell too. A couple of recent performances have actually provided some encouragement, but resultswise, we're in freefall.

I think it's pretty likely we'll wind up seventh.

[Monkey Tennis]

It's stating the obvious that Queens have gone backwards, but is it a sackable offence? Fowler had a big job of rebuilding the team this summer and it's fair to say he hasn't done particularly well, but he's not done so catastrophically badly that you've fallen back to fighting relegation. Okay, you've looked a bit 'Raith under Grant Murray' and obviously haven't gotten close to the playoffs which should be the realistic target, but he's hardly Gus McPherson.

 

While the top four should be the target for Queen of the South and it's fair to ask questions of managers failing to make it, you're obviously not going to manage it every single year with Falkirk, Raith, Morton & St. Mirren also targeting it on top of the title challengers. Sacking a manager every time they fail to make it would be madness, particularly when that manager got you there in a more competitive division last season.

 

Obviously there are factors beyond purely league position to consider that only Queens fans can really comment on such as his tactical knowledge, flexibility, use of substitutions etc, but on results and league position alone it would seem harsh to sack him now.

 

If you have another season like this next time with no credible challenge it's a sign that Fowler just isn't capable of building a squad good enough to challenge himself and if so it'd probably be fair to sack him then as he clearly isn't going to get you back into contention, but one season of under-performance on the back of a good season isn't grounds for the sack IMO. If that under-performance was a total collapse and he'd taken you closer to the relegation battle than mid-table fair enough, but he hasn't.

He's got a one year contract, so failure to renew is what's being discussed. That's not the same as a sacking.

[Broony88]

Did you have the 4th or 5th largest budget in this division? Probably not. Should you have had the 4th or 5th highest budget based on your income? Probably not. Then 4th/5th in this division isn't a fair description of your level, regardless of where you were placing back when dross like Clyde were stinking out the division.

Obviously fans want to see their club over-achieving compared to the resources at their disposal, but identifying which of the six teams above them Queen of the South should be finishing above on paper takes some wishful thinking rather than objective superiority of resources.

More often than not, you weren't even in this league; Queen of the South have had a strong recent period by historical standards, but you're still a middle-rank provincial club. Let's not forget that the last time that the likes of Hibs, Saint Mirren and Morton were in the same division together, you were tanking near the bottom of the Second Division. You suffered considerable underachievement then and have enjoyed a more recent overachievement, but inevitably regression to the long-term mean kicks in and so... here we are.

Similarly, when Ross County eventually stop over-performing to a relative degree and slide into this tier, occasionally the seaside leagues as well, their fans will be rightly disappointed but can hardly say with a straight face that their 'natural level' is the top flight of Scottish football.

On the topic of budgets I would say yes we will have the 5th biggest budget in the league. Certainly more than Alloa, Livi, Dumbarton, Morton and Raith.

On the term of income we are more than likely in a similar position 4th maybe 5th with our off field income with the arena.

[Monkey Tennis]

Did you have the 4th or 5th largest budget in this division? Probably not. Should you have had the 4th or 5th highest budget based on your income? Probably not. Then 4th/5th in this division isn't a fair description of your level, regardless of where you were placing back when dross like Clyde were stinking out the division.

 

Obviously fans want to see their club over-achieving compared to the resources at their disposal, but identifying which of the six teams above them Queen of the South should be finishing above on paper takes some wishful thinking rather than objective superiority of resources.

 

 

More often than not, you weren't even in this league; Queen of the South have had a strong recent period by historical standards, but you're still a middle-rank provincial club. Let's not forget that the last time that the likes of Hibs, Saint Mirren and Morton were in the same division together, you were tanking near the bottom of the Second Division. You suffered considerable underachievement then and have enjoyed a more recent overachievement, but inevitably regression to the long-term mean kicks in and so... here we are.

 

Similarly, when Ross County eventually stop over-performing to a relative degree and slide into this tier, occasionally the seaside leagues as well, their fans will be rightly disappointed but can hardly say with a straight face that their 'natural level' is the top flight of Scottish football.

No, middle of this division is not overachievement. It's punching at our weight. Our Harkness inspired doldrums are as relevant as our top flight spells either side of the war.

[vikingTON]

On the topic of budgets I would say yes we will have the 5th biggest budget in the league. Certainly more than Alloa, Livi, Dumbarton, Morton and Raith.

On the term of income we are more than likely in a similar position 4th maybe 5th with our off field income with the arena.

 

I don't think the gap is particularly large, but I'd expect both Morton and Raith to have a larger budget than yourselves. The same goes for matchday revenue (at least if we exclude the always wild claims about additional non-matchday revenue). Though in Morton's case, revenue doesn't really matter because our chairman is a fantasist who doesn't operate a functioning business model anyway. There is no credible scenario where Queen of the South are pulling in the fourth highest revenue ahead of Falkirk or Saint Mirren though.

 

No, middle of this division is not overachievement. It's punching at our weight. Our Harkness inspired doldrums are as relevant as our top flight spells either side of the war.

 

Well no they're not equally relevant - your top-flight spells came in an 18-team division; the late 1990s was a 10-team top-tier, in which very few of the Division One sides - who are in the same division now - were either smaller or poorer clubs than yourselves in the Second. You weren't a sleeping giant of any description when you arrived in the division, and you could well spend more time in the doldrums with a few piss-poor decisions.

 

Your 'middle of the division' claim depends of course on how you define 'middle': 4th place in the current 12-10 setup is absolutely an overachievement, as would be 4th place in this specific division. Somewhere in the mid-table pack would be par for the course, quite possibly a rung lower depending on how Dunfermline adapt next season. Swapping Cowdenbeath out for a full-time side automatically made the midfield competition harder this season, and it will be even more difficult next season. So while you're free to ditch your manager on whatever basis you like, doing so because your 'natural level is 4th in The Championship' remains delusional nonsense, frankly.

[Dunning1874]

He's got a one year contract, so failure to renew is what's being discussed. That's not the same as a sacking.

 

Fair enough, didn't realise his contract was up. I'd say the same arguments apply though.

[Skyline Drifter]

He's got a one year contract, so failure to renew is what's being discussed. That's not the same as a sacking.

It really is. It might have different legal or financial ramifications but if Directors take a unilateral decision to change the manager then it is pretty much the same thing.

[Broony88]

I don't think the gap is particularly large, but I'd expect both Morton and Raith to have a larger budget than yourselves. The same goes for matchday revenue (at least if we exclude the always wild claims about additional non-matchday revenue). Though in Morton's case, revenue doesn't really matter because our chairman is a fantasists who doesn't operate a functioning business model anyway. There is no credible scenario where Queen of the South are pulling in the fourth highest revenue ahead of Falkirk or Saint Mirren though.

Well no they're not equally relevant - your top-flight spells came in an 18-team division; the late 1990s was a 10-team top-tier, in which very few of the Division One sides - who are in the same division now - were either smaller or poorer clubs than yourselves in the Second. You weren't a sleeping giant of any description when you arrived in the division, and you could well spend more time in the doldrums with a few piss-poor decisions.

Your 'middle of the division' claim depends of course on how you define 'middle': 4th place in the current 12-10 setup is absolutely an overachievement, as would be 4th place in this specific division. Somewhere in the mid-table pack would be par for the course, quite possibly a rung lower depending on how Dunfermline adapt next season. Swapping Cowdenbeath out for a full-time side automatically made the midfield competition harder this season, and it will be even more difficult next season. So while you're free to ditch your manager on whatever basis you like, doing so because your 'natural level is 4th in The Championship' remains delusional nonsense, frankly.

Raith fans claim they have the smallest full time playing budget and I would be astounded if players you largely assembled for league one last season were put together on a larger budget than ours. There won't be a massive amount in it obviously but I think we have the 5th highest wage bill in this division.

I couldn't tell you what our off field income was last year but It has been a very shrewd investment from our board that won't take long to pay for itself if it hasn't already done so. No wild claims just an income no other club in this division has.

[CowdenConvert]

Raith fans claim they have the smallest full time playing budget and I would be astounded if players you largely assembled for league one last season were put together on a larger budget than ours. There won't be a massive amount in it obviously but I think we have the 5th highest wage bill in this division.

I couldn't tell you what our off field income was last year but It has been a very shrewd investment from our board that won't take long to pay for itself if it hasn't already done so. No wild claims just an income no other club in this division has.

Don't let the Livi fans think that. They seem to think they have a smaller budget than P/T dumbo. If any F/T side claims to have a smaller budget than Livi the fans will be streaming onto the M8 like lemmings.

[vikingTON]

Raith fans claim they have the smallest full time playing budget and I would be astounded if players you largely assembled for league one last season were put together on a larger budget than ours. There won't be a massive amount in it obviously but I think we have the 5th highest wage bill in this division.

 

We signed Ross Forbes, Tidser and Peter MacDonald last January to help get us out of the league, and then strengthened the squad with several players in the summer. It's not moneybags stuff but given that our matchday revenue will likely be higher than Queens (our current average home attendance is around 600-700 higher) and our chairman doesn't stick to a credible budget anyway, it's a pretty safe bet that we'll have a larger budget than a genuinely sustainable side. Raith have had some additional investment from external backers this season, both in terms of sponsorship (Val McDermid IIRC) and to fund player contracts.

 

I couldn't tell you what our off field income was last year but It has been a very shrewd investment from our board that won't take long to pay for itself if it hasn't already done so. No wild claims just an income no other club in this division has.

 

Incorrect actually. Alloa fans love to claim that their rolling £300k a year losses under Mulraney was actually 'investment' in a sports and leisure facility. They fantasise about how they must be raking in money by now, from a facility based in a small provincial town. It's a wonder why local councils didn't build such money-printing facilities all over the country during the good times; curiously, they now seem to be closing them down instead. Similarly, the likes of Forfar and Stenhousemuir project fantasy island figures about how much profit is actually being achieved by renting out their pitch.

 

None of those clubs are actually capable of putting a competent team on the park though: which points to a predictable outcome where the costs of these off-the-pitch schemes swallow the bulk of the revenue taken in. I'm not saying that they aren't a useful option to have (particularly for cashflow purposes) but Scottish football fans are notorious for hyping the impact that they will actually have on the first team players' budget.

[SUPERSOUTH]

It really is. It might have different legal or financial ramifications but if Directors take a unilateral decision to change the manager then it is pretty much the same thing.

No its Not he got a years contract and that's that if the board terminate it before hand that's sacking him if they don't give him another contract that's different the same applies to all the players!!

[Monkey Tennis]

Well no they're not equally relevant - your top-flight spells came in an 18-team division; the late 1990s was a 10-team top-tier, in which very few of the Division One sides - who are in the same division now - were either smaller or poorer clubs than yourselves in the Second. You weren't a sleeping giant of any description when you arrived in the division, and you could well spend more time in the doldrums with a few piss-poor decisions.

 

Your 'middle of the division' claim depends of course on how you define 'middle': 4th place in the current 12-10 setup is absolutely an overachievement, as would be 4th place in this specific division. Somewhere in the mid-table pack would be par for the course, quite possibly a rung lower depending on how Dunfermline adapt next season. Swapping Cowdenbeath out for a full-time side automatically made the midfield competition harder this season, and it will be even more difficult next season. So while you're free to ditch your manager on whatever basis you like, doing so because your 'natural level is 4th in The Championship' remains delusional nonsense, frankly.

Who remotely suggested we arrived as " a sleeping giant"?

And who said we should ditch our manager because our "natural level is 4th in The Championship"?

I've not seen anybody do either.

[Monkey Tennis]

It really is. It might have different legal or financial ramifications but if Directors take a unilateral decision to change the manager then it is pretty much the same thing.

So, when we issue one year contracts, is there an assumption that they'll be renewed so long as calamity is avoided?

[Homer Thompson]

We signed Ross Forbes, Tidser and Peter MacDonald last January to help get us out of the league, and then strengthened the squad with several players in the summer. It's not moneybags stuff but given that our matchday revenue will likely be higher than Queens (our current average home attendance is around 600-700 higher) and our chairman doesn't stick to a credible budget anyway, it's a pretty safe bet that we'll have a larger budget than a genuinely sustainable side. Raith have had some additional investment from external backers this season, both in terms of sponsorship (Val McDermid IIRC) and to fund player contracts.

 

 

Incorrect actually. Alloa fans love to claim that their rolling £300k a year losses under Mulraney was actually 'investment' in a sports and leisure facility. They fantasise about how they must be raking in money by now, from a facility based in a small provincial town. It's a wonder why local councils didn't build such money-printing facilities all over the country during the good times; curiously, they now seem to be closing them down instead. Similarly, the likes of Forfar and Stenhousemuir project fantasy island figures about how much profit is actually being achieved by renting out their pitch.

 

None of those clubs are actually capable of putting a competent team on the park though: which points to a predictable outcome where the costs of these off-the-pitch schemes swallow the bulk of the revenue taken in. I'm not saying that they aren't a useful option to have (particularly for cashflow purposes) but Scottish football fans are notorious for hyping the impact that they will actually have on the first team players' budget.

Which other club has indoor pitches, commercial rent from the same building and a seperate facility with full size pitch and gym then?

[Monkey Tennis]

I'm not sure where I stand on the management team question.

I don't see a very pressing case to either renew, or not, to be honest.

I suppose that means we better keep him, in the hope that a bit of stability is fruitful, and in the absence of obvious alternatives.

If we take very few points from the remaining three games though, it hardly places him in a very strong position. I've said before that I wouldn't mind seeing Skelton get a promotion, but I seem to be alone in that.

I see us sticking with Fowler, but with his reserves of faith and goodwill, somewhat eroded.

[Broony88]

Which other club has indoor pitches, commercial rent from the same building and a seperate facility with full size pitch and gym then?

This is a fast growing snowball with vikington, he likes to think he is talking sense and knows what he's talking about but that snowball of nonsense is growing with every post. Clueless on all things queens but getting involved like an insider.

Not three players on championship wages, how are you going to survive that massive wage bill ?

[vikingTON]

Which other club has indoor pitches, commercial rent from the same building and a seperate facility with full size pitch and gym then?

 

We were dealing with the claim that it was "an income no other club in the division has". Which was of course wrong; Alloa have a similar 'revenue-generating' facility. I couldn't give a toss about the specific and frankly boring details of your facility, because they're not actually relevant to the discussion.

 

Thanks for playing anyway.

[Broony88]

We were dealing with the claim that it was "an income no other club in the division has". Which was of course wrong; Alloa have a similar 'revenue-generating' facility. I couldn't give a toss about the specific and frankly boring details of your facility, because they're not actually relevant to the discussion.

Thanks for playing anyway.

It is an income no other club has unless they have 5 aside pitches that I don't know about with a cafe, Gym and office space. I know st Mirren had the indoor balloon thing for a while but not sure if that's being used atm.

[Homer Thompson]

We were dealing with the claim that it was "an income no other club in the division has". Which was of course wrong; Alloa have a similar 'revenue-generating' facility. I couldn't give a toss about the specific and frankly boring details of your facility, because they're not actually relevant to the discussion.

 

Thanks for playing anyway.

 

The details of the facility are directly linked to the income its able to generate. As Broony said, we have sources of off-field income that other clubs in the division dont. Alloa have a pitch they rent out. Its similar to what we have only in the fact that its green.