Wage cut turned down by Meadow players

[Sancho Panza]

Accounts should be presented to the members at the clubs AGM.

So they either were and passed and everyone knew the debt, or they were not and it was hidden.either way the club are culpable of serious mis management

[berryblastie]

You only need to look at the player s at medda,s disposal,,,,they, have a lot of quality player s,,who would get a game at most, super premier teams,,, but the players, really have to look at themselves,,to actually sit down n say,, am I doing enough for Irvine medow or am I going through the motions,,not to get injured, so it doesn't harm me for leaving,,,a don't know much wages the player s are on,,,so can't comment on wit they would lose, if they took pay cut,,,,,,but am sure every player that a been at the medda, for a couple of years, has been well looked after,by medda,,,,,so for me the player s are being greedy,n selfish, demanding full pay ,, they should be ashamed to take there money with winning only one league game this season,,,,,as for committee,, they need to get some balls, n sort it out as quickly as possible ,,,the only people a feel bad for is David grieg n his team of coaches, who's went there through good faith to try n keep club up,,,,,there's still plenty to play for to get out,, of it,,,,but it's really down to the prima donna player s at the medda,,,,,cheers cotter

How are the players being greedy n selfish?

Medda offered them contracts at start of season knowing that they owed thousands .

Some of those players probably had offers from other clubs but meadow probably offered more cash to sign for them .

Seems to me that Medda officials are trying to deflect the heat off themselves and on to players who have done nothing wrong .

[Poolwizard]

How are the players being greedy n selfish?

Medda offered them contracts at start of season knowing that they owed thousands .

Some of those players probably had offers from other clubs but meadow probably offered more cash to sign for them .

Seems to me that Medda officials are trying to deflect the heat off themselves and on to players who have done nothing wrong .

Bottom of division hmmmm they ain't done wrong

[Poolwizard]

How are the players being greedy n selfish?

Medda offered them contracts at start of season knowing that they owed thousands .

Some of those players probably had offers from other clubs but meadow probably offered more cash to sign for them .

Seems to me that Medda officials are trying to deflect the heat off themselves and on to players who have done nothing wrong .

And why even when they knew that the club owed thousands that they still went there

They must have known that there was a chance of this happening by your reckoning

[berryblastie]

And why even when they knew that the club owed thousands that they still went there

They must have known that there was a chance of this happening by your reckoning

Mybe they got assurance that cash problem was in hand .

End of day clubs shouldn't offer wages to player's unless they know they can pay them.

[Hertha/BJFC1938]

Can see both sides of the coin here in that meadow gave these contracts out so the onus has to be on the club to honour them , ï¸however I would like to think my own club who I support's players would maybe think of the innocent guys in this - the fans - and maybe just maybe be subject to a little come and go for their sake if it's through a 10% wage reduction- which isn't a great deal upon the grand scale of things .

The players aren't culpable here and it's the head crop behind the scenes at meadow who've allowed that club to be run into the ground financially for years - ï¸ï¸however Here's some food for thought - I would put money on the fact that the meadow players who've refused a 10% wage reduction would be the same guys who are happy still picking up a wage when they can't make training / are away on stag weekends and can't play /are away at weddings and can't play/ are away on family holidays during the season and can't play/ get foolish suspensions and can't play - and yet I reckon they would still be happy to take a wage when being unavaiable through all these reasons.

So maybe when you factor in the above and that the club would still happily pay them when they don't honour their contracts greatly at times then is 10% a real hardship ?

Personally I would find only for the fans sake it very hard to turn up and get behind the players come match day if they couldn't come and go for the fans a little; as for meadows top hierarchy ive no sympathy whatsoever in what they've done to the club via spending so many thousands and paying players mortgages for years as it could never be sustainable.

[Meddaheroes1973]

***Response on behalf of all Meadow players posted by Paul Maxwell on Medda Forum this morning***

It saddens me, as a senior player at this club, to see the articles, comments and scapegoat stories regarding me and my team mates yesterday. We, the players, agreed today that I share this post.

In all our times as football players we have been taught to take the good with the bad for whatever happens on the park. This season and to some extent last season we, as players, have failed miserably...and I mean miserably. Penalty shoot out loss to Arthurlie in the West, 4-0 drubbing at home to Talbot in the Scottish, 4-0 drubbing away to Shettleston and for me the worst I have ever experienced the 8-0 drubbing away to Troon. There is no excuses, and we as players need to take every bit of criticism that comes, and to an extent continues to come, until we get it right. In my first season here we were all praised to the hilt for our efforts and it still pains me personally that we couldn't get you to the Scottish final. This season has been the season from hell, us players have never failed to acknowledge how much the fans have been suffering due to our performances this season and I along with my teammates will continue to take responsibility for this. For me personally, I have been no where near good enough. This isn't a commendable statement from me or the players...this is fact...a mere fact...until we get

it right...then we deserve nothing in return.

We then got exposure to a newspaper article that portrays the players as mere scapegoats for the clubs financial shit storm. I think the heading of the article was:

'Irvine Meadow players refused wage cut!!!!'

The outcome of this article had the desired effect from our beloved committee and low and behold the players are now being held accountable for 'off field' antics and financial affairs. This is something that I and my team mates cannot sit back and tolerate. I can concur that the meeting with the chairman and secretary did take place last Wednesday night and I can concur that we as players refused to take the wage cut. This choice may I point out was not out of greed and certainly not taken lightly but to the mere fact that some, if not all of the boys, actually rely on the wage. I know of at least a handful of team mates who actually rely on the money to pay towards their monthly rent. In addition the players pointed out at the meeting that the resignation of two players in January (Jamie Darroch and Mark Twaddle) would have saved the club around the same amount as the requested 10% wage cut and yet the club allowed the signing of 2 additional players since then? I can concur also that players were informed of interest from other clubs and every single one of these players refused to leave, these players admitted they were and still are 100% committed to Irvine Meadow. Maybe that will disperse any question marks around the players 'attitude'. Lastly I can concur that a request to change training from Glasgow to Irvine was immediately vetoed by the players. As most folk know we are now heading into a midweek fixture backlog and the decision to change training at this stage of the season would be pointless. This however would have been considered by the players if it was brought forward earlier in the season.

We have agreed though that we won't stoop to the lows of our beloved committee on the actual going ons behind the scenes over the past few months in particular.

What I will remind folk is that, over the past 2 summers I have organised a charity event at the club, some of you will know as the 'Maxi fun day'....it has proved to be a great success and not only did it bring great exposure to the club, it raised money for charity and for a short time allowed kids from the local Irvine community to enjoy a great summers day. This event was a plan to build a foundation for the benefit of the club with myself and friends of mine (including ex and current players of the club) willing to reach out to all schools in Ayrshire to see what we could do for the kids across the communities on an ongoing basis. This would have been highly beneficial for the club not only from a reputation stand point but financially profitable. Unfortunately due to my knee injury last season, I had to prioritise. To read comments and slander towards me and my team mates in the aftermath of yesterday's article pains me personally. Why are we now held accountable and made out as the scapegoat for financial misjudgements at the club? To say we are disappointed with the comments is an understatement, our own committee have hung us out to dry. If us as players aren't doing the job on the park then we have every right to be slaughtered for it. The tactics shown from our beloved committee are a disgrace. I will always have a great affinity with the fans here at Medda, albeit I personally haven't given you much to cheer about this season or last it doesn't mean I nor my team mates have thrown in the towel. We have a massive game this Saturday, probably the biggest game in the clubs recent history and I know we won't go down fighting. In fact I can promise you that on behalf of the players. But it will be for us and the fans, no one else, in fact if we win and if we build on it and somehow manage to get us out of this mess it will be the biggest achievement for us as players.

Some of you can take that as you will.

As I stated at the beginning of this post, you can take this statement as official from every player at the club.

I am happy for anyone to reach out to me personally on the back of this post. I nor any of my team mates will shy away from any questions.

Maxi

[berryblastie]

Bottom of division hmmmm they ain't done wrong

Yes results have been poor but that's football

[berryblastie]

***Response on behalf of all Meadow players posted by Paul Maxwell on Medda Forum this morning***

It saddens me, as a senior player at this club, to see the articles, comments and scapegoat stories regarding me and my team mates yesterday. We, the players, agreed today that I share this post.

In all our times as football players we have been taught to take the good with the bad for whatever happens on the park. This season and to some extent last season we, as players, have failed miserably...and I mean miserably. Penalty shoot out loss to Arthurlie in the West, 4-0 drubbing at home to Talbot in the Scottish, 4-0 drubbing away to Shettleston and for me the worst I have ever experienced the 8-0 drubbing away to Troon. There is no excuses, and we as players need to take every bit of criticism that comes, and to an extent continues to come, until we get it right. In my first season here we were all praised to the hilt for our efforts and it still pains me personally that we couldn't get you to the Scottish final. This season has been the season from hell, us players have never failed to acknowledge how much the fans have been suffering due to our performances this season and I along with my teammates will continue to take responsibility for this. For me personally, I have been no where near good enough. This isn't a commendable statement from me or the players...this is fact...a mere fact...until we get

it right...then we deserve nothing in return.

We then got exposure to a newspaper article that portrays the players as mere scapegoats for the clubs financial shit storm. I think the heading of the article was:

'Irvine Meadow players refused wage cut!!!!'

The outcome of this article had the desired effect from our beloved committee and low and behold the players are now being held accountable for 'off field' antics and financial affairs. This is something that I and my team mates cannot sit back and tolerate. I can concur that the meeting with the chairman and secretary did take place last Wednesday night and I can concur that we as players refused to take the wage cut. This choice may I point out was not out of greed and certainly not taken lightly but to the mere fact that some, if not all of the boys, actually rely on the wage. I know of at least a handful of team mates who actually rely on the money to pay towards their monthly rent. In addition the players pointed out at the meeting that the resignation of two players in January (Jamie Darroch and Mark Twaddle) would have saved the club around the same amount as the requested 10% wage cut and yet the club allowed the signing of 2 additional players since then? I can concur also that players were informed of interest from other clubs and every single one of these players refused to leave, these players admitted they were and still are 100% committed to Irvine Meadow. Maybe that will disperse any question marks around the players 'attitude'. Lastly I can concur that a request to change training from Glasgow to Irvine was immediately vetoed by the players. As most folk know we are now heading into a midweek fixture backlog and the decision to change training at this stage of the season would be pointless. This however would have been considered by the players if it was brought forward earlier in the season.

We have agreed though that we won't stoop to the lows of our beloved committee on the actual going ons behind the scenes over the past few months in particular.

What I will remind folk is that, over the past 2 summers I have organised a charity event at the club, some of you will know as the 'Maxi fun day'....it has proved to be a great success and not only did it bring great exposure to the club, it raised money for charity and for a short time allowed kids from the local Irvine community to enjoy a great summers day. This event was a plan to build a foundation for the benefit of the club with myself and friends of mine (including ex and current players of the club) willing to reach out to all schools in Ayrshire to see what we could do for the kids across the communities on an ongoing basis. This would have been highly beneficial for the club not only from a reputation stand point but financially profitable. Unfortunately due to my knee injury last season, I had to prioritise. To read comments and slander towards me and my team mates in the aftermath of yesterday's article pains me personally. Why are we now held accountable and made out as the scapegoat for financial misjudgements at the club? To say we are disappointed with the comments is an understatement, our own committee have hung us out to dry. If us as players aren't doing the job on the park then we have every right to be slaughtered for it. The tactics shown from our beloved committee are a disgrace. I will always have a great affinity with the fans here at Medda, albeit I personally haven't given you much to cheer about this season or last it doesn't mean I nor my team mates have thrown in the towel. We have a massive game this Saturday, probably the biggest game in the clubs recent history and I know we won't go down fighting. In fact I can promise you that on behalf of the players. But it will be for us and the fans, no one else, in fact if we win and if we build on it and somehow manage to get us out of this mess it will be the biggest achievement for us as players.

Some of you can take that as you will.

As I stated at the beginning of this post, you can take this statement as official from every player at the club.

I am happy for anyone to reach out to me personally on the back of this post. I nor any of my team mates will shy away from any questions.

Maxi

Well said

[Larky55]

Very interesting & informative post. Well done.

[clash city rocker]

***Response on behalf of all Meadow players posted by Paul Maxwell on Medda Forum this morning***

It saddens me, as a senior player at this club, to see the articles, comments and scapegoat stories regarding me and my team mates yesterday. We, the players, agreed today that I share this post.

In all our times as football players we have been taught to take the good with the bad for whatever happens on the park. This season and to some extent last season we, as players, have failed miserably...and I mean miserably. Penalty shoot out loss to Arthurlie in the West, 4-0 drubbing at home to Talbot in the Scottish, 4-0 drubbing away to Shettleston and for me the worst I have ever experienced the 8-0 drubbing away to Troon. There is no excuses, and we as players need to take every bit of criticism that comes, and to an extent continues to come, until we get it right. In my first season here we were all praised to the hilt for our efforts and it still pains me personally that we couldn't get you to the Scottish final. This season has been the season from hell, us players have never failed to acknowledge how much the fans have been suffering due to our performances this season and I along with my teammates will continue to take responsibility for this. For me personally, I have been no where near good enough. This isn't a commendable statement from me or the players...this is fact...a mere fact...until we get

it right...then we deserve nothing in return.

We then got exposure to a newspaper article that portrays the players as mere scapegoats for the clubs financial shit storm. I think the heading of the article was:

'Irvine Meadow players refused wage cut!!!!'

The outcome of this article had the desired effect from our beloved committee and low and behold the players are now being held accountable for 'off field' antics and financial affairs. This is something that I and my team mates cannot sit back and tolerate. I can concur that the meeting with the chairman and secretary did take place last Wednesday night and I can concur that we as players refused to take the wage cut. This choice may I point out was not out of greed and certainly not taken lightly but to the mere fact that some, if not all of the boys, actually rely on the wage. I know of at least a handful of team mates who actually rely on the money to pay towards their monthly rent. In addition the players pointed out at the meeting that the resignation of two players in January (Jamie Darroch and Mark Twaddle) would have saved the club around the same amount as the requested 10% wage cut and yet the club allowed the signing of 2 additional players since then? I can concur also that players were informed of interest from other clubs and every single one of these players refused to leave, these players admitted they were and still are 100% committed to Irvine Meadow. Maybe that will disperse any question marks around the players 'attitude'. Lastly I can concur that a request to change training from Glasgow to Irvine was immediately vetoed by the players. As most folk know we are now heading into a midweek fixture backlog and the decision to change training at this stage of the season would be pointless. This however would have been considered by the players if it was brought forward earlier in the season.

We have agreed though that we won't stoop to the lows of our beloved committee on the actual going ons behind the scenes over the past few months in particular.

What I will remind folk is that, over the past 2 summers I have organised a charity event at the club, some of you will know as the 'Maxi fun day'....it has proved to be a great success and not only did it bring great exposure to the club, it raised money for charity and for a short time allowed kids from the local Irvine community to enjoy a great summers day. This event was a plan to build a foundation for the benefit of the club with myself and friends of mine (including ex and current players of the club) willing to reach out to all schools in Ayrshire to see what we could do for the kids across the communities on an ongoing basis. This would have been highly beneficial for the club not only from a reputation stand point but financially profitable. Unfortunately due to my knee injury last season, I had to prioritise. To read comments and slander towards me and my team mates in the aftermath of yesterday's article pains me personally. Why are we now held accountable and made out as the scapegoat for financial misjudgements at the club? To say we are disappointed with the comments is an understatement, our own committee have hung us out to dry. If us as players aren't doing the job on the park then we have every right to be slaughtered for it. The tactics shown from our beloved committee are a disgrace. I will always have a great affinity with the fans here at Medda, albeit I personally haven't given you much to cheer about this season or last it doesn't mean I nor my team mates have thrown in the towel. We have a massive game this Saturday, probably the biggest game in the clubs recent history and I know we won't go down fighting. In fact I can promise you that on behalf of the players. But it will be for us and the fans, no one else, in fact if we win and if we build on it and somehow manage to get us out of this mess it will be the biggest achievement for us as players.

Some of you can take that as you will.

As I stated at the beginning of this post, you can take this statement as official from every player at the club.

I am happy for anyone to reach out to me personally on the back of this post. I nor any of my team mates will shy away from any questions.

Maxi

With that statement think your time at Medda is done.

Time to move on.

[Meddaheroes1973]

I'm not Maxi, just a genuine supporter of the club. Felt it was important to share the players' response in order for people to gain a balanced view.

[albertz]

Think Willie Hill at Bathgate and you probably won't be far away from the truth...

Bathgate new committee have brought the club back ,money spent on park then around the ground .change of managers over last couple of years but now building a team to get back to super league with new management team that are different class. local business's now supporting club Bathgate thistle on the up

Sent from my iPhone using Pie & Bovril

[skinnymalinkylonglegs]

***Response on behalf of all Meadow players posted by Paul Maxwell on Medda Forum this morning***

It saddens me, as a senior player at this club, to see the articles, comments and scapegoat stories regarding me and my team mates yesterday. We, the players, agreed today that I share this post.

In all our times as football players we have been taught to take the good with the bad for whatever happens on the park. This season and to some extent last season we, as players, have failed miserably...and I mean miserably. Penalty shoot out loss to Arthurlie in the West, 4-0 drubbing at home to Talbot in the Scottish, 4-0 drubbing away to Shettleston and for me the worst I have ever experienced the 8-0 drubbing away to Troon. There is no excuses, and we as players need to take every bit of criticism that comes, and to an extent continues to come, until we get it right. In my first season here we were all praised to the hilt for our efforts and it still pains me personally that we couldn't get you to the Scottish final. This season has been the season from hell, us players have never failed to acknowledge how much the fans have been suffering due to our performances this season and I along with my teammates will continue to take responsibility for this. For me personally, I have been no where near good enough. This isn't a commendable statement from me or the players...this is fact...a mere fact...until we get

it right...then we deserve nothing in return.

We then got exposure to a newspaper article that portrays the players as mere scapegoats for the clubs financial shit storm. I think the heading of the article was:

'Irvine Meadow players refused wage cut!!!!'

The outcome of this article had the desired effect from our beloved committee and low and behold the players are now being held accountable for 'off field' antics and financial affairs. This is something that I and my team mates cannot sit back and tolerate. I can concur that the meeting with the chairman and secretary did take place last Wednesday night and I can concur that we as players refused to take the wage cut. This choice may I point out was not out of greed and certainly not taken lightly but to the mere fact that some, if not all of the boys, actually rely on the wage. I know of at least a handful of team mates who actually rely on the money to pay towards their monthly rent. In addition the players pointed out at the meeting that the resignation of two players in January (Jamie Darroch and Mark Twaddle) would have saved the club around the same amount as the requested 10% wage cut and yet the club allowed the signing of 2 additional players since then? I can concur also that players were informed of interest from other clubs and every single one of these players refused to leave, these players admitted they were and still are 100% committed to Irvine Meadow. Maybe that will disperse any question marks around the players 'attitude'. Lastly I can concur that a request to change training from Glasgow to Irvine was immediately vetoed by the players. As most folk know we are now heading into a midweek fixture backlog and the decision to change training at this stage of the season would be pointless. This however would have been considered by the players if it was brought forward earlier in the season.

We have agreed though that we won't stoop to the lows of our beloved committee on the actual going ons behind the scenes over the past few months in particular.

What I will remind folk is that, over the past 2 summers I have organised a charity event at the club, some of you will know as the 'Maxi fun day'....it has proved to be a great success and not only did it bring great exposure to the club, it raised money for charity and for a short time allowed kids from the local Irvine community to enjoy a great summers day. This event was a plan to build a foundation for the benefit of the club with myself and friends of mine (including ex and current players of the club) willing to reach out to all schools in Ayrshire to see what we could do for the kids across the communities on an ongoing basis. This would have been highly beneficial for the club not only from a reputation stand point but financially profitable. Unfortunately due to my knee injury last season, I had to prioritise. To read comments and slander towards me and my team mates in the aftermath of yesterday's article pains me personally. Why are we now held accountable and made out as the scapegoat for financial misjudgements at the club? To say we are disappointed with the comments is an understatement, our own committee have hung us out to dry. If us as players aren't doing the job on the park then we have every right to be slaughtered for it. The tactics shown from our beloved committee are a disgrace. I will always have a great affinity with the fans here at Medda, albeit I personally haven't given you much to cheer about this season or last it doesn't mean I nor my team mates have thrown in the towel. We have a massive game this Saturday, probably the biggest game in the clubs recent history and I know we won't go down fighting. In fact I can promise you that on behalf of the players. But it will be for us and the fans, no one else, in fact if we win and if we build on it and somehow manage to get us out of this mess it will be the biggest achievement for us as players.

Some of you can take that as you will.

As I stated at the beginning of this post, you can take this statement as official from every player at the club.

I am happy for anyone to reach out to me personally on the back of this post. I nor any of my team mates will shy away from any questions.

Maxi

its a sad situation that players rely on what is basically a part time wage to pay there rent,what happens,god forbid if one has a serious injury and has to give up the game.is that him now homeless?.just like the club players are living out with there means.if you cant pay your rent with your main job,GET A WEER HOOSE.

[Jambo'ness]

Have to agree with Skinny, players should never treat it and rely on it, as a cash cow.

 

However, the committee seem to have landed the players in it and so caused an irreversible divide.

 

You can always find new players but finding a new committee always proves harder, so the players will be off.

[Hertha/BJFC1938]

its a sad situation that players rely on what is basically a part time wage to pay there rent,what happens,god forbid if one has a serious injury and has to give up the game.is that him now homeless?.just like the club players are living out with there means.if you cant pay your rent with your main job,GET A WEER HOOSE.

Excellent post and well said .

When people quote things like the following about junior football in general it saddens me;

Free agents

Mercenaries

We need to play junior to pay the mortgage

Can't afford a pay cut

Need to make a living out the game etc ;

Well it just means that our grade is fucked in my opinion and meadow in allowing it to happen and greedy players taking advantage of if over the years have both being big factors in it happening .

We currently see average players on £200 a week ; what would some of the great junior players of the 70s , 80s and 90s have been on if it went with their far better ability than what's generally on offer today. ?

[berryblastie]

Would this situation have raised if it wasn't a weekly wage ?

Going back Mybe 8/10 year ago most clubs offered a signing on fee plus expenses and win bonus.

So if a guy came and asked for £8000 signing on fee (equivalent to a player wanting £200 a week ) now most clubs would tell them no chance.

[Auld Heid]

It saddens me to see any club get themselves in such a state.  When will clubs learn that accepting easy monies is only the road to ruin.

 

I don't know of one single club who have continued to thrive following such outside input.  Every time a club starts to flash money - junior football suffers.  As you then have average players demanding mega bucks and teams struggling to compete financially.

 

History tells you that all these outside influences get fed up or fall out with clubs and then move on

 

Players and officials need to learn that Junior Football isn't about MONEY.  Until clubs stop paying average players above the odds Junior Football will never thrive.  

 

Other sports Rugby League have wage caps etc - Financial Fair play rules etc and maybe that is something we need to look at (albeit not easy to implement at this level)

[clattypat]

Excellent post and well said .

When people quote things like the following about junior football in general it saddens me;

Free agents

Mercenaries

We need to play junior to pay the mortgage

Can't afford a pay cut

Need to make a living out the game etc ;

Well it just means that our grade is fucked in my opinion and meadow in allowing it to happen and greedy players taking advantage of if over the years have both being big factors in it happening .

We currently see average players on £200 a week ; what would some of the great junior players of the 70s , 80s and 90s have been on if it went with their far better ability than what's generally on offer today. ?

The medda situation is nothing new!! , clubs foolishly let some business man/woman in with the promise of plenty of cash and silverware ,Then said business person then gets bored ,falls out with the committee or gets the jail from their ill gotten gains( in some but not all cases) .Then said club goes bust and drops down the leagues . Benburb,,Maryhill, Bathgate ,kilwinning (first time round) to name but a few. The money medda were banding about was insane and this outcome was inevitable ....These clubs deserve all they get from financial mismanagement.!! Beith for example ,without Maggie and JB and their corporate influence and connections would never be able to pay the wages they pay . Not the £150/200 that medda were paying, but not far off it .This is also the case with half the premier league teams and some superfirst teams. How do I know what teams pay ??? because I do !!, as they say , your only two pay packets or estranged sugardaddy or a manager with cash away from homelessness.

[Guest chavez]

Think Willie Hill at Bathgate and you probably won't be far away from the truth...

Apologies for this veering off from the title topic but I'm sick to death of people having a go at Willie Hill.

Willie Hill was at Bathgate for over 20 years and not a fly by night as some seem to think. He was a wealthy businessman who ploughed HIS OWN MONEY into the Club and gave us what's likely to be our only ever Junior cup success. He was stopped from expanding the Club due to a backward thinking council at the time. He left no debts and looked after his players well. He also paid some generous sums to other Clubs who I'm led to believe weren't shy in holding him to ransom. Bathgate weren't a big club before our 15 minutes of fame and we're not a big club now. We're still in there surviving and trying to lay foundations for the future.