Scots

[vikingTON]

A point that some people here are too dumb to understand.

A weak claim indeed from our resident armchair professor of linguistics, who can't make his mind up whether Scots is even standardised or not.

[ICTChris]

My grandparents in Shetland spoke Scots or a Scots influenced dialect, I wish I'd learned some in school as half the time I had no idea what the hell they were saying. Scots is certainly more prominent in Shetland than anywhere else I've lived or spent time.

[invergowrie arab]

My grandparents in Shetland spoke Scots or a Scots influenced dialect, I wish I'd learned some in school as half the time I had no idea what the hell they were saying. Scots is certainly more prominent in Shetland than anywhere else I've lived or spent time.

Nah you have dodged a bullet. You will have room in the additional language section of your brain to learn mandarin and to be a high flyer in the world of business.

[The_Kincardine]

Nah you have dodged a bullet. You will have room in the additional language section of your brain to learn mandarin and to be a high flyer in the world of business.

This may be mildly OT but, having bilingual bairns, I'm amazed at their capacity for language acquisition.  The trick, though, seems to start acquiring another language before the age of 6.

 

My thesis, then, is that Scottish blokes should marry/whelp with 'foreign' women to produce a new nation of polyglots.

[vikingTON]

It's definitely helpful to learn at a younger age but it's never too late to do so. A major obstacle IMO is that the English language is generally taught on more of a trial and error, rote-learning basis rather than explaining the structure itself. Which works fine for native English-speakers in a dominant English-language environment, but makes the first experience of genders, cases etc. in foreign languages more tricky to wrap your head around for quite some time. Those eventually become automated over time and practice though.

[ICTChris]

Nah you have dodged a bullet. You will have room in the additional language section of your brain to learn mandarin and to be a high flyer in the world of business.

I'm already a high flyer in the world of business without it. I can remember people saying when I was in school that they should teach us Japanese instead of French and German. Apparently Kevin Keegan was recently asked what advice he'd give a young footballer and he said "Learn Mandarin". This explains the shambles of his second Newcastle spell IMO, he spent the whole time teaching Steven Taylor Mandarin.

I did Higher German at school and they said I should've done a second language (would've been Italian in my school) but I didn't. Other people can answer this better than I but I don't think you need to do a language at Standard grade or intermediate 1/2 or whatever it's called now.

[invergowrie arab]

It is indeed never too late but having had bilingual pre schooling is why I think I found German a piece of piss at school and have generally had no problems picking up enough to get by for food/ directions/greeting etc in any european country I have been to including Finland and Bulgaria.

 

Korea was a nightmare though, my brain isnt built for that.

[The_Kincardine]

It's definitely helpful to learn at a younger age but it's never too late to do so. A major obstacle IMO is that the English language is generally taught on more of a trial and error, rote-learning basis rather than explaining the structure itself. Which works fine for native English-speakers in a dominant English-language environment, but makes the first experience of genders, cases etc. in foreign languages more tricky to wrap your head around for quite some time. Those eventually become automated over time and practice though.

There does seem to be an age cut-off when it comes to learning a language natively and it seems to be around the age of 6.  After that one can get close to fluency but not quite.

 

The case (no pun) of English is a tricky one.  Its fluidity makes it easy to acquire a basic knowledge but almost impossible to codify.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

A weak claim indeed from our resident armchair professor of linguistics, who can't make his mind up whether Scots is even standardised or not.

Your cut and paste job shows you are not the expert.

Also try reading what I said and not what you think I said - or is that beyond your minute tweenie brain?

You know something as well? This isn't an issue of nationalism - I can respect folk here who have a different opinion.

Fide and I don't usually see eye to eye but on the whole his heart is in the right place - he's a good cvnt.

You are just a cvnt.

Edited March 18, 2016 by DeeTillEhDeh

[vikingTON]

Your cut and paste job shows you are not the expert.

Also try reading what I said and not what you think I said - or is that beyond your minute tweenie brain?

You know something as well? This isn't an issue of nationalism - I can respect folk here who have a different opinion.

Fide and I don't usually see eye to eye but on the whole his heart is in the right place - he's a good cvnt.

You are just a cvnt.

^^^ sobbing uncontrollably

[vikingTON]

There does seem to be an age cut-off when it comes to learning a language natively and it seems to be around the age of 6. After that one can get close to fluency but not quite.

The case (no pun) of English is a tricky one. Its fluidity makes it easy to acquire a basic knowledge but almost impossible to codify.

The difference between native knowledge and fluent knowledge isn't all that important though. In some languages it will involve mastering different vocal sounds or automatically knowing nuances (like the double negative rule in English for example). Learning the fundamentals of grammar on the other hand is something that native learning wouldn't really teach, but makes grasping the nuances of additional, new languages fairly straightforward.

[invergowrie arab]

Whilst we are all here. What is the purpose of gendered nouns and having a variety of definite articles?

[The_Kincardine]

 Learning the fundamentals of grammar on the other hand is something that native learning wouldn't really teach,

This is utter bollocks.  The essence of learning a language natively is getting to grips with its grammar.  Grammar is implicit rather than something which is codified.  English is the non plus ultra in this regard.

Edited March 18, 2016 by The_Kincardine

[DeeTillEhDeh]

^^^ sobbing uncontrollably

Are you?

[The_Kincardine]

Whilst we are all here. What is the purpose of gendered nouns and having a variety of definite articles?

All about politicisation and control.  See Sudan, Ukraine, Rangers and Kincardine.

[Thistle_do_nicely]

I mind my Dad visiting an Arab (not the kind currently crashing to the lower leagues under Mixu, more the kind that likes spunking oil money up the wall on football toys clubs) friend years ago and my dad striking up a wee conversation with said Arab's wee girl (think she was about 4 or 5 at the time)

 

Dad went through and was complimenting the girl's english for her age, that she was really friendly etc. and the guy was perplexed. Called her through and my Dad started chatting to her in English again.

 

Turned out she'd learned to speak English solely through watching her favourite show all the time, Sesame Street - their family literally only ever spoke Arabic about the house and hadn't the foggiest idea that she was able to speak any English at all, let alone hold down a wee conversation in it.

 

This was a fair few years ago now though so I'd be amazed if English isn't a lot more prolific, even in home use. Forget which country it was but I think it was Dubai.

[Baxter Parp]

It's my own view that Scots as a language is like Latin - a dead language that is not spoken day to day - certainly not in terms that Scots 200+ years ago might understand. There seems to be a confusion between what is Scots language and what is no more than regionalised variations of Scots English.

Yet Latin is taught in all the best schools, imagine.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Yet Latin is taught in all the best schools, imagine.

But not as a spoken language - unlike French German etc there isn't a Latin oral - and for good reason.

As I say, what we speak today is not Scots in the true sense but Scots English which still has Scots words used.

The true test I suppose is if someone does speak in true Scots - do you understand what they are saying? I've heard some people reading out in Doric and quite frankly , apart for some words here and there didn't have clue what they were talking about.

A study in 2010 by the Scottish Government of "public attitudes towards the Scots language" discovered that 64% of respondents "don't really think of Scots as a language", but it also found that "the most frequent speakers are least likely to agree that it is not a language (58%) and those never speaking Scots most likely to do so (72%)".

That is not surprising given that even a linguists cannot agree on what is a language and what is a dialect. Given also that languages change over time it's also not surprising that there is disagreement over what Scots actually is today. What I would call Scots bears no resemblance to the language we use now yet there are some who would argue that it is still the same language. It's a hen and egg situation - is what we speak today Scots that has taken on many English words or (as I believe) is it a case that English has taken over with remnants of Scots phrases left as link to the Scots language.

Language does change very quickly - I have used what I would call good Dundonian words yet the youngsters I was talking too didn't have a clue what I am talking about.

Putting that debate to one side what I would say regards Scots is that it has to be covered in schools in the sense of providing the historical and Social context for all subjects. It shouldn't just be a once a year event by a school's English department. That idea is reflected in some if the Curriculum for Excellence. For example in Technologies pupils should "be capable of making reasoned choice relating to the environment, sustainable development and ethical, economic and cultural issues".

[flyingrodent]

In an era where the global trend is overwhelmingly towards closer international communication, stuff like the National's version of written Scots looks perverse and counterproductive, if not actively demented. 

 

Functionally speaking, language is just a tool for communication, one that evolves to meet the needs of its users.  I can't see how e.g. learning how to write in phonetic Scots would be in any way useful, for anyone.

[ScotSquid]

Does The National pepper its articles with Scots? I've only read a couple of articles online and never noticed that