The OP Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 (edited) Tbf if people want to go to mountains and glens and act like Gaelic matters, then fair fucks to them. As long as they don't do it anywhere near schools I don't have any problem with it. Edited March 17, 2016 by The OP 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmothecat Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 What you are calling "modern Scots" has more in common with "English" than "older forms of Scots". How similar does it have to be before we are speaking the same language in different dialects? There's more of a difference between the communications of a rural Yorkshireman and someone from Liverpool than there is between so-called "modern Scots" and "English". As Scots is spoken in Scotland, its own country, and has its own dialects, and has evolved with English but also independently of it, I think it still retains its place as its own language and not a dialect of English. I don't see how it matters if it shares more similarities between English than it does traditional Scots anyway (though I'm not sure that's true, spoken Doric for example seems more similar to Scots than it does English to me). There are more similarities between modern English and traditional Scots than there is between modern English and Old English, yet both modern English and old English still come under the bracket of 'English'. It's the way language evolves as far as I'm concerned and I'm happy to consider the Scots spoken in Scotland to still be considered Scots. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peppino Impastato Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 (edited) Congratulations. That has to be the most nonsensical bullshit you have ever written.Yeah total self loather, our national poet is shit our capital city is shit now our language is shit. He's the Scottish 'I hate my gums cause they black' guy. Apologies if you don't get the reference. Edited March 17, 2016 by Peppino Impastato 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Stubbs Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 I'd rather see a big push in our education system towards modern languages tbh. Being native speakers of the world's business language but also having a more outward-looking European approach than the rest of the Anglosphere would do more to encourage national confidence than teaching Scots imo. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrewDon Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 With regard to Gaelic, I remember reading a couple of years ago that over 3,500 primary and secondary pupils in Scotland were enrolled in GME. That was a rise of 35% from 2010. My school was the only (state) secondary in Aberdeen that offered Gaelic at Standard Grade and above, but only to the small number who had been exposed to GME beforehand. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 I can know I am on Sgòr an Lochain Uaine and not Carn an t-Sabhail without reference to a map. I also get to feel smug and shake my head when I hear people trying to pronounce Coire an t-Sneachda. As I said immeasurably useful. Actually this is a fair point. Feeling smug and looking down on people for being wrong is an important trait that we need to actively encourage in Scotland. As Scots is spoken in Scotland, its own country, and has its own dialects, and has evolved with English but also independently of it, I think it still retains its place as its own language and not a dialect of English. I don't see how it matters if it shares more similarities between English than it does traditional Scots anyway (though I'm not sure that's true, spoken Doric for example seems more similar to Scots than it does English to me). There are more similarities between modern English and traditional Scots than there is between modern English and Old English, yet both modern English and old English still come under the bracket of 'English'. It's the way language evolves as far as I'm concerned and I'm happy to consider the Scots spoken in Scotland to still be considered Scots. Almost no one under 40 speaks Doric in Aberdeen and surrounding areas. Most people speak English with varying strengths of Scottish dialects. I don't count Old English as the same language as the one we use today. It's a different language. The distinction between dialect and language is always going to be one of degree but I honestly do not believe that what people in Scotland mostly speak and write today can credibly be considered a different language from the language that people speak and write-in in England, Australia, New Zealand, the US and most of Canada. I'd rather see a big push in our education system towards modern languages tbh. Being native speakers of the world's business language but also having a more outward-looking European approach than the rest of the Anglosphere would do more to encourage national confidence than teaching Scots imo. Oh absolutely this. Scotland and the UK's prospects in the 21st century will depend infinitely more on how many people we teach Mandarin and Spanish than it will teaching people to communicate with pensioners on the Western Isles or Peterhead fishermen. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin_Nevis Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 I can know I am on Sgòr an Lochain Uaine and not Carn an t-Sabhail without reference to a map. I also get to feel smug and shake my head when I hear people trying to pronounce Coire an t-Sneachda. As I said immeasurably useful. A'Mhaighdean is a good one for confusing the f**k out of people, closely followed by Beinn Mheadhoin But if we spend money on this sort of thing the poor will pay for it disproportionately? WIll nobody think of the poor godammit? Shut the f**k up you dribbling simpleton. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 Almost no Scottish people speak Scots the language rather than a Scottish dialect of English. Consistently no matter where they are and who they are speaking to, yes. Get away from East Renfrewshire into rural areas or fishing villages and the way the older generation speaks amongst themselves can be very broad. If you have never been in that sort of environment socially, it's easy to be completely unaware of just how broad that can be. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bairn Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 Scots is #dece Gaelic on the other hand is for teuchters and should be allowed to die out 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Stubbs Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 Am I right in thinking the SNP have introduced more Scottiah history and literature into the curriculum and that there's supposed to be something like a 1/3 Scottish, 1/3 British, 1/3 European/international breakdown? I agree with that policy. Kids must be getting some exposure to written Scots through that system, without it getting in the way of more important, practical skills. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaikuHibee Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 As long as they don't do it anywhere near schools I don't have any problem with it. So even if Gaelic schools outperform English ones we should scrap them because a Lib Dem candidate has something to say about Yorkshire men and Scousers? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmothecat Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 The distinction between dialect and language is always going to be one of degree but I honestly do not believe that what people in Scotland mostly speak and write today can credibly be considered a different language from the language that people speak and write-in in England, Australia, New Zealand, the US and most of Canada. . The difference is Scots evolved distinctly from English, whilst American English etc did not. The new world English is English which has adapted. Scots is a language that developed itself, with a lot of influence from English. Scots is as different to English as Norwegian is to Danish, but few would claim Norwegian and Danish are the same language. Doric is spoken by plenty of people under 40 in Aberdeenshire. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmothecat Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 So even if Gaelic schools outperform English ones we should scrap them because a Lib Dem candidate has something to say about Yorkshire men and Scousers? Is that because they are disproportionately educating the middle class who see these schools as an opportunity to give their children a private education without paying the fees? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peppino Impastato Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 I'd rather see a big push in our education system towards modern languages tbh. Being native speakers of the world's business language but also having a more outward-looking European approach than the rest of the Anglosphere would do more to encourage national confidence than teaching Scots imo. Good post but it's hardly the case that we can't do both its not one or the othr 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee Willie Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 I mean I, rightly or wrongly, see Gallus as a purely Glaswegian word and have never in my life heard anyone from Dundee or Perth use it. I was highlighting the difficulty in a newspaper printing something and saying "here is your Scots" when it is nothing of the sort. Inver I bide no a million miles frae you and I use gallus a' the time. If you & I were ha'in' a blether in the street and we saw a wee dug standing up tae a big dug I wid remark, "he's a gallus wee bugger" and you would probably agree wi' me. I see the point regarding the written word and that is why I said that there would have tae be an official approach tae the Scots language through the schools. There would have tae be a standardized spelling of the words. Recently I phoned the diabetes nurse and she asked me if I exercised. "Naw", I said, "I'm too stechie" and she burst oot laughing. That is a superb word tae describe someone like me. Overweight, short-winded and knackered. Apart from teaching Scots in the schools we should see and hear mair o' it in the media. Several times on Sportsound on the radio on a Saturday afternoon I have heard commentators describing a goal as a stoatir. A brilliant description and a lovely word. As Scots is spoken in Scotland, its own country, and has its own dialects, and has evolved with English but also independently of it, I think it still retains its place as its own language and not a dialect of English. I don't see how it matters if it shares more similarities between English than it does traditional Scots anyway (though I'm not sure that's true, spoken Doric for example seems more similar to Scots than it does English to me). There are more similarities between modern English and traditional Scots than there is between modern English and Old English, yet both modern English and old English still come under the bracket of 'English'. It's the way language evolves as far as I'm concerned and I'm happy to consider the Scots spoken in Scotland to still be considered Scots. Well said Jim. Some excellent posts. The difference is Scots evolved distinctly from English, whilst American English etc did not. The new world English is English which has adapted. Scots is a language that developed itself, with a lot of influence from English. Scots is as different to English as Norwegian is to Danish, but few would claim Norwegian and Danish are the same language. Doric is spoken by plenty of people under 40 in Aberdeenshire. Anither guid post. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 What you are calling "modern Scots" has more in common with "English" than "older forms of Scots". How similar does it have to be before we are speaking the same language in different dialects? There's more of a difference between the communications of a rural Yorkshireman and someone from Liverpool than there is between so-called "modern Scots" and "English". There is less difference between, to cite just one example, the Czech and Slovak languages than modern Scots and English. The term 'dialect' is a politically-determined, subjective category rather than an objective, linguistic definition, so you're barking up the wrong tree. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee Willie Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 There is less difference between, to cite just one example, the Czech and Slovak languages than modern Scots and English. The term 'dialect' is a politically-determined, subjective category rather than an objective, linguistic definition, so you're barking up the wrong tree. That, if I may say so, is a guid point. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 Scots is as different to English as Norwegian is to Danish, but few would claim Norwegian and Danish are the same language. Doric is spoken by plenty of people under 40 in Aberdeenshire. There isn't one Norwegian language. There are two major literary standards referred to as Bokmal and Nynorsk (and some extra fringe nutter ones). Bokmal is basically Danish with some minor changes to better fit a Norwegian accent and add in some distinctive local vocabulary, because the main cities like Oslo became Danish speaking over the centuries of Danish rule, while Nynorsk is closer to Norway's traditional Old Norse that was still being used in rural areas especially in the west around the Sogne fjord. It's exceedingly unlikely that Scotland would ever ditch standard English given all the advantages it offers globally. It was a lot easier for Norwegians to give up literary Danish in practical terms, but the raw material in linguistic terms of Burnistoun sketch character vs Buchan fermer is still there in Scotland for something similar to unfold if historical circumstances were different. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dipped Flake Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 I mean I, rightly or wrongly, see Gallus as a purely Glaswegian word and have never in my life heard anyone from Dundee or Perth use it. I was highlighting the difficulty in a newspaper printing something and saying "here is your Scots" when it is nothing of the sort. Gallus was certainly used in Leith so no way is it just a Glasgow word. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 Am I right in thinking the SNP have introduced more Scottiah history and literature into the curriculum and that there's supposed to be something like a 1/3 Scottish, 1/3 British, 1/3 European/international breakdown? I agree with that policy. Kids must be getting some exposure to written Scots through that system, without it getting in the way of more important, practical skills. The one-third split, for history at least, is only for the upper levels but most schools do focus on Scottish history in the BGE. There's a real debate around the Bruceification of history replacing the obsession with teaching the Nazi's. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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