Scots

[invergowrie arab]

Probably belongs in here. Language is a deeply political thing and our Scots words are undoubtedly one of the ways we differentiate ourselves from other parts of the union.

So, what role should Scots play in modern Scotland?

I'm all for it. Especially in early years education where early literacy could be greatly enhanced by including words and sounds that children here in their home and family environment.

I'm also of the view that any additional words or language to add to your vocabulary is a good thing. I'll still often use words like cuddy, doo or puddock.

But

I'm a bit uncomfortable with the pish currently being promoted in the National. By equating Scots with phonetic approximations of slang or accent I think you make it an easy target for the opponents of the language or put off potential supporters. It does the language a disservice by cheapening it by printing the equivalent of the English speaker in Paris ordering a coffee in a French accent and thinking he is impressing the locals.

It's always going to be difficult as one of the great things about languages without a William Caxton figure or Academie Francaise is their diversity. So when I see people saying things like we should be gallus about writing in Scots I recoil as famous is a word I would never use in a million years, it's not my Scots or that of my community.

P.S. nae northern ireland

[Ad Lib]

Scots as a distinct language as opposed to Scottish dialects of English is spoken and used as the register for written communication by almost no one and hasn't been even by a significant minority for decades. The attempts by The National to tart it up for political purposes are completely cringeworthy and discredit even the use of Scots as an art-form in poetry, song, theatre and prose.

 

Much like Gaelic I see no reason for governments to make concerted efforts to keep a language falling into disuse alive when there are so many more important things we could be doing to do things that actually help people. I'm not going to fight over a fraction of a culture budget going on some roadsigns and a couple of schools though.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Ad Lib

[invergowrie arab]

I not sure if we disagree or not.

I want to keep Gaelic and Scots, not to "keep it alive" artificially or promote as a first language like the Irish attempted but precisely because it has cultural and artistic value. I have f**k all evidence to back it up but I also suspect Gaelic road signs have some sort of value in adding to the aesthetic experience of the highlands as something other, which as well as the loch, mountains, islands and brochs, contributes to its attraction as a tourist destination.

[Wee Willie]

So when I see people saying things like we should be gallus about writing in Scots I recoil as famous is a word I would never use in a million years, it's not my Scots or that of my community.

I'm no trying tae be cheeky but I'm no sure whit ye mean wi' that sentence.

Dae ye mean ye wouldnae use the word gallus? It's no my Scots or that of my community.

And whit does that mean?

When I was a bairn many years ago, I (and every other bairn) would get the strap or a skelp on the lug if we dared tae use Scots language in school.

Now, because of that, I and presumably others find it difficult tae spell some of the words because there was no reference book.

I've nae idea if Scots is now being taught (or accepted) in school.

But there are some wonderful and evocative Scots words that are mair appropriate than the equivalent english ones.

Words such as sleekit which describes the (two up) poster above.

Other words such as havering, maukit & glaikit which could also describe him.

 

Unfortunately I don't think there will be an official place for Scots in a modern Scotland unless it is taught and accepted in the schools.

Fortunately the Scots language (unofficially) will always be spoken wherever there are Scotsmen and women (and bairns).

[Ad Lib]

I not sure if we disagree or not.

I want to keep Gaelic and Scots, not to "keep it alive" artificially or promote as a first language like the Irish attempted but precisely because it has cultural and artistic value. I have f**k all evidence to back it up but I also suspect Gaelic road signs have some sort of value in adding to the aesthetic experience of the highlands as something other, which as well as the loch, mountains, islands and brochs, contributes to its attraction as a tourist destination.

 

At an intuitive level I think they (Gaelic and Scots) are a waste of time for governments to protect, even for artistic value. I think their "artistic value" is more than capable of sustaining itself. But I can see why others disagree.

[Peppino Impastato]

Scots as a distinct language as opposed to Scottish dialects of English is spoken and used as the register for written communication by almost no one and hasn't been even by a significant minority for decades. The attempts by The National to tart it up for political purposes are completely cringeworthy and discredit even the use of Scots as an art-form in poetry, song, theatre and prose.

 

Much like Gaelic I see no reason for governments to make concerted efforts to keep a language falling into disuse alive when there are so many more important things we could be doing to do things that actually help people. I'm not going to fight over a fraction of a culture budget going on some roadsigns and a couple of schools though.

I think it's very important to keep gaelic alive personally and think we will see a modest resurgence in that similar to Wales but not to the same extent. I'm not surprised you disagree, and think your opinions on scots should be understood in the context that you believe it is how ' backwardspeasants' speak and ddismissed accordingly as a result of your snobbery.

[HaikuHibee]

 I'm not going to fight over a fraction of a culture budget going on some roadsigns and a couple of schools though.

 

Weird, because it sounds like you are spending your time doing exactly that.

 

Gaelic? Scots? I like them. If the fact other people do pisses off people like Ad Lib, it's a massive bonus in my opinion.

Edited March 17, 2016 by HaikuHibee

[jmothecat]

I think the difficulty with it is as it hasn't been standardised how do you determine what is Scots and what is slang? There's also the issue of regional variation. There are Scots words which are heard in the North East that aren't said in Glasgow, and ones which are said in Glasgow that you won't hear in the Borders. If you introduce it into education it would be important to ensure these regional differences are respected.

I'm in two minds on it. If people speak Scots at home, then teaching everything in English means that children have to basically translate what they think and how they speak into a similar language that isn't their first language. On the other hand many Scottish people don't actually speak Scots at home or growing up, so by changing the curriculum to focus on Scots would be counter productive for them.

It wasn't that long ago that I was at school and we would be told off by teachers for not 'speaking properly' for using Scots words, thankfully those days are past, but I am unsure of the best way to have Scots in the curriculum. Perhaps more of a focus on it in English, instead of just a few Burns' poems they could teach it legitimately as a language in itself.

I would like to see more money and focus on it, as to me it is more deserving of funds than Gaelic, a language I have no relation to whatsoever. I don't know a single person who speaks Gaelic, but I know many who speak Scots. Scots and verities of Scots encompass the whole country, whilst Gaelic is only dominant in small regions. Scots, to me, is more representative of us than Gaelic.

Edited March 17, 2016 by jmothecat

[The OP]

I cannot understand the interest in keeping Gaelic alive either. Seems like a pointless exercise to me.

People typing in Scots is only slightly less lamentable than people writing in klingon. I'll use Scots words and drop my ts now and then but wee willie's post is an abortion.

[invergowrie arab]

So when I see people saying things like we should be gallus about writing in Scots I recoil as famous is a word I would never use in a million years, it's not my Scots or that of my community.

I'm no trying tae be cheeky but I'm no sure whit ye mean wi' that sentence.

Dae ye mean ye wouldnae use the word gallus? It's no my Scots or that of my community.

And whit does that mean?

When I was a bairn many years ago, I (and every other bairn) would get the strap or a skelp on the lug if we dared tae use Scots language in school.

Now, because of that, I and presumably others find it difficult tae spell some of the words because there was no reference book.

I've nae idea if Scots is now being taught (or accepted) in school.

But there are some wonderful and evocative Scots words that are mair appropriate than the equivalent english ones.

Words such as sleekit which describes the (two up) poster above.

Other words such as havering, maukit & glaikit which could also describe him.

Unfortunately I don't think there will be an official place for Scots in a modern Scotland unless it is taught and accepted in the schools.

Fortunately the Scots language (unofficially) will always be spoken wherever there are Scotsmen and women (and bairns).

I mean I, rightly or wrongly, see Gallus as a purely Glaswegian word and have never in my life heard anyone from Dundee or Perth use it.

I was highlighting the difficulty in a newspaper printing something and saying "here is your Scots" when it is nothing of the sort.

[Peppino Impastato]

So when I see people saying things like we should be gallus about writing in Scots I recoil as famous is a word I would never use in a million years, it's not my Scots or that of my community.

I'm no trying tae be cheeky but I'm no sure whit ye mean wi' that sentence.

Dae ye mean ye wouldnae use the word gallus? It's no my Scots or that of my community.

And whit does that mean?

When I was a bairn many years ago, I (and every other bairn) would get the strap or a skelp on the lug if we dared tae use Scots language in school.

Now, because of that, I and presumably others find it difficult tae spell some of the words because there was no reference book.

I've nae idea if Scots is now being taught (or accepted) in school.

But there are some wonderful and evocative Scots words that are mair appropriate than the equivalent english ones.

Words such as sleekit which describes the (two up) poster above.

Other words such as havering, maukit & glaikit which could also describe him.

Unfortunately I don't think there will be an official place for Scots in a modern Scotland unless it is taught and accepted in the schools.

Fortunately the Scots language (unofficially) will always be spoken wherever there are Scotsmen and women (and bairns).

Great post and you're a great proponent of Scots. My grandads first language was gaelic, in Scotland you're supposed to say gahlic btw, gaylic is Irish. Most people get tht wrong. I think the relatively tiny percentage of gaelispeakers is a result of the cultural imperialism of the uk state which actively tried to eradicate it for a long time.

I think it's a shame we don't do gaelic in school and think we probably should do a little similar to how we learn french or German. It's part of our cultural heritage.

I never got him to teach me any though which is a shame, only know a couple of words.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Peppino Impastato

[invergowrie arab]

I would also add that as a hillwalker Gaelic is immeasurably useful and interesting geographically/topographically/cartographically but I might well be in a very small minority there.

[Ad Lib]

On the other hand many Scottish people don't actually speak Scots at home or growing up, so by changing the curriculum to focus on Scots would be counter productive for them.

Almost no Scottish people speak Scots the language rather than a Scottish dialect of English.

[HaikuHibee]

Almost no Scottish people speak Scots the language rather than a Scottish dialect of English.

 

What language was that?

[Ad Lib]

I would also add that as a hillwalker Gaelic is immeasurably useful and interesting geographically/topographically/cartographically but I might well be in a very small minority there.

Hurrah for being able to pronounce Ben Macdui. Truly we are blessed.

 

 

[jmothecat]

Almost no Scottish people speak Scots the language rather than a Scottish dialect of English.

Modern Scots has evolved to be a lot closer to English than older forms of Scots. Doesn't make the Scots spoken at large these days to be any less of a legitimate language.

[Ad Lib]

What language was that?

 

What language was what? That of the sentence I wrote? It was English, mate.

[Ad Lib]

Modern Scots has evolved to be a lot closer to English than older forms of Scots. Doesn't make the Scots spoken at large these days to be any less of a legitimate language.

 

What you are calling "modern Scots" has more in common with "English" than "older forms of Scots". How similar does it have to be before we are speaking the same language in different dialects? There's more of a difference between the communications of a rural Yorkshireman and someone from Liverpool than there is between so-called "modern Scots" and "English".

[HaikuHibee]

 There's more of a difference between the communications of a rural Yorkshireman and someone from Liverpool than there is between so-called "modern Scots" and "English".

 

Congratulations. That has to be the most nonsensical bullshit you have ever written.

[invergowrie arab]

Hurrah for being able to pronounce Ben Macdui. Truly we are blessed.

I can know I am on Sgòr an Lochain Uaine and not Carn an t-Sabhail without reference to a map.

I also get to feel smug and shake my head when I hear people trying to pronounce Coire an t-Sneachda.

As I said immeasurably useful.