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it seems to me threave rovers are in a no win situation . far to big for the south of scotland league slightly struggling in the lowland league . to be honest it was not much fun watching threave beat fleet star 10/11/12 nil . equally not funny watching threave losing 6--0 to stirling uni .  improvement in threave at present few victories on the bounce . lets hope . come on threave

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Please see my previous posts and you will find the reasons I don't agree with the Juniors in the Scottish Cup.

 

So in your world a licenced Junior club such as Linlithgow Rose, Bank O’Dee and Girvan are not welcome in the Scottish Cup, but BSC are who do not have their own ground and rely on a Junior club for their licence? I bet you were raging when the Amatuer Cup winners were allowed in.

 

As I said, that kind of attitude/logic is part of the problem with Scottish football and not part of the solution.

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So in your world a licenced Junior club such as Linlithgow Rose, Bank O’Dee and Girvan are not welcome in the Scottish Cup, but BSC are who do not have their own ground and rely on a Junior club for their licence?

 

The Juinior clubs you mentioned should not be licensed anyway as they do not part of the criteria (embracing the pyramid structure). The SFA should revoke their licences as part of their annual review.

 

As far as BSC is concerned they are paying rent just like the majority of lincensed clubs.  It just so happens the landlord in this case is a junior club.

 

I bet you were raging when the Amatuer Cup winners were allowed in.

 

I am not raging but they should only be paid expenses ^_^

 

As I said, that kind of attitude/logic is part of the problem with Scottish football and not part of the solution.

 

The problem with Scottish football is that there are too many National leagues.   In my opinion an elite league of 20 followed by regionalisation would be more than enough for a country our size.  A gradual evolution would be required with the scaling back of the number of clubs playing in the national leagues.

 

The only way that is going to happen is from within and the current gang of turkeys are not going to vote for it.  If they are gradually replaced by more regionalised minded clubs and the finances are distributed more widely down the pyramid structure then things might change.

 

However it will require a change in mind-set from the SFA (made up mostly of turkeys) and the junior clubs. With the junior clubs choosing to stay on the outside of the pyramid structure, then the process will take longer.  They need to bite the bullet initially and be part of the structure they want to change.

Edited by Cicero

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Burnie_man

 

Girvan retained their SFA membership when they moved to the juniors and are entitled to play in the Scottish Cup long before any of the affiliated organisations got invited in.  

 

Again I’ve stated that I don’t agree with affiliated members playing in the members cup and this would also include the amateur cup winners who were invited in this year as they are from an affiliated association.  For your records I was not raging but simply disagreed with the SFA’s decision.   

 

Regarding licenced clubs like Linlithgow Rose and Bank O'Dee again why would these clubs potentially spend thousands to get their licence if they had no intention of joining the Highland/Lowland League aka the pyramid system.  Cicero made an interesting point regarding part of the criteria of the licence is to embrace the pyramid structure.  

 

As per my attitude/logic I’ve only stated I don’t agree with affiliated members playing in a member’s cup, I’ve also stated that the topic was relegation from the Lowland League when the junior question popped up again and I’ve stated that I'm not interested what happens in juniorland as the way forward for progressive clubs has already been set up and running.  All clubs have had the same opportunity to apply but those who haven't for whatever reason that’s up to them.

 

If my comments have upset you Burnie_man tough, after all it’s a forum and like football it’s all about opinions.     

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I suspect that the SFA are happy for the 160 or so non-league clubs in the Juniors to stay on the outside or they would have done something about it by now.

 

They are quite happy spreading their resources around the select few and have no interest in being inclusive which was made perfectly clear when the LL was set up.

As Burnie and others have said on here the SFA control the referees and player registrations so could easily lean on the SJFA to fall into line.

The fact that they haven't speaks volumes!

 

The SJFA office bearers are not entirely blameless in all of this as I'm sure not all of what was being discussed by the pyramid working group was being passed on to member clubs. The questionnaire that was sent out for clubs was slanted and unreasonable and only asked if clubs wanted to play in the SPFL!

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Regarding licenced clubs like Linlithgow Rose and Bank O'Dee again why would these clubs potentially spend thousands to get their licence if they had no intention of joining the Highland/Lowland League aka the pyramid system.  Cicero made an interesting point regarding part of the criteria of the licence is to embrace the pyramid structure. 

 

Banks O'Dee do want to get into the Highland League. There is currently no avenue open for them to get in, despite the disastrous performance of Rothes this season. Says something about the "pyramid" that the one junior club that actually does want to progress into the SPFL and has the licence in place to do so, have not been allowed to join the party. There are no valid grounds for excluding Banks O'Dee even under the progression clause because they have agreed to accept promotion into the Highland League if they are ever provided with the opportunity to be promoted. The test case for what happens in the Lowland league catchment area in that sort of regard will be Haddington Athletic. Given there is no serious danger of them ever winning the east superleague, they could say they would be happy to accept promotion from it into the LL without the issues of a supporters backlash that a club like Bo'ness United would face on that.

Edited by LongTimeLurker

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Burnie_man

 

Girvan retained their SFA membership when they moved to the juniors and are entitled to play in the Scottish Cup long before any of the affiliated organisations got invited in.  

 

Again I’ve stated that I don’t agree with affiliated members playing in the members cup and this would also include the amateur cup winners who were invited in this year as they are from an affiliated association.  For your records I was not raging but simply disagreed with the SFA’s decision.   

 

Regarding licenced clubs like Linlithgow Rose and Bank O'Dee again why would these clubs potentially spend thousands to get their licence if they had no intention of joining the Highland/Lowland League aka the pyramid system.  Cicero made an interesting point regarding part of the criteria of the licence is to embrace the pyramid structure.  

 

As per my attitude/logic I’ve only stated I don’t agree with affiliated members playing in a member’s cup, I’ve also stated that the topic was relegation from the Lowland League when the junior question popped up again and I’ve stated that I'm not interested what happens in juniorland as the way forward for progressive clubs has already been set up and running.  All clubs have had the same opportunity to apply but those who haven't for whatever reason that’s up to them.

 

If my comments have upset you Burnie_man tough, after all it’s a forum and like football it’s all about opinions.     

Banks O`Dee probably have signed up to the pyramid but have nowhere to play as the Highland League is full!

 

Can you not see the problems that this half arsed pyramid has created?

 

Glasgow Uni are now licensed and play in the Scottish Cup but haven't been made play in any of the feeder leagues because there isn't one in the West of Scotland!

 

Its time the governing body took control of this whole shambles and sorted it out,but I wont hold my breath.

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They really have to try to find a way to make it three leagues (north/west/east) at tier five for the pyramid to ever have any chance of involving the juniors.  I don't think that splitting it into north/east/west would even make many junior clubs join in the short-term future but it's the only sensible option.  A north/south divide makes no sense for Scotland at all.

 

You could even split the Lowland League into east/west right now assuming that Newton Stewart and St. Cuthbert Wanderers become licensed.

 

West:

BSC Glasgow

Cumbernauld Colts

Dalbeattie Star

East Kilbride

Gretna 2008

Stirling University

Threave Rovers

Newton Stewart

St. Cuthbert Wanderers

Wigtown & Bladnoch

Glasgow University

 

East:

Edinburgh City

Edinburgh University

Gala Fairydean Rovers

Preston Athletic

Selkirk

Spartans

Vale of Leithen

Whitehill Welfare

Burntisland Shipyard

Civil Service Strollers

Coldstream

Hawick Royal Albert

 

Not exactly the strongest leagues, I know, but it would leave the leagues with vacancies to bring the total up to 16 or whatever number is decided as the maximum.  I've excluded Linlithgow from this as they presumably have no interest in the pyramid.

 

I know there is no chance of this happening but I thought I'd take a look at the options right now anyway.

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If the Highland league go's to 2 divisions and there's discussions aplenty about such a thing happening,Banks are an absolute shoe in,or the other scenario is a Highland team being promoted this season into league 2,again Banks will be invited in.Agree, the SFA need to sort the whole of non league Scotland out,it's crazy theirs league's playing alongside one another,one group in the pyramid the other are not,absolute madness!!

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Banks O`Dee probably have signed up to the pyramid but have nowhere to play as the Highland League is full!

 

Can you not see the problems that this half arsed pyramid has created?

 

Glasgow Uni are now licensed and play in the Scottish Cup but haven't been made play in any of the feeder leagues because there isn't one in the West of Scotland!

 

Its time the governing body took control of this whole shambles and sorted it out,but I wont hold my breath.

 

Thanks for pointing out the Banks O'Dee situation but if enough clubs were like Banks they would have no option but to create a HL2 or LL2, I know this has been discussed before on this forum. I'm aware the pyramid system isn't perfect but it's better than we had before and hopefully through time the SFA will hopefully take responsibility and come up with an acceptable solution.   

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Thanks for pointing out the Banks O'Dee situation but if enough clubs were like Banks they would have no option but to create a HL2 or LL2, I know this has been discussed before on this forum. I'm aware the pyramid system isn't perfect but it's better than we had before and hopefully through time the SFA will hopefully take responsibility and come up with an acceptable solution.

But for enough clubs to be in that situation you'd need junior teams to get licensed, and then you'd be even more annoyed that they would be able to compete in the Scottish without being members yet.

So what is it you actually want?

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I am always reading from certain posters that the SFA should take more responsibility for the restructuring of non-league football.  What I want to know is who at the SFA should be held accountable for this?

 

As far as I know the Chief executive (presently Stuart Reagan) is responsible for overseeing the development of the game in Scotland.  Does that mean, he has the power to tell the likes of the top junior clubs to form a "West of Scotland League" like the East and South of Scotland leagues?  I would say not. 

 

I also believe that he is also ultimately responsible for administration of the game, so could he blackmail clubs in certain leagues to force them to do something for "the good of the game" to do something that their members do not wish them to do?  Again I would say that is beyond his remit.

 

If it is not solely Reagan's responsibility then is it the responsibility of the main Board? 

 

The main Board consists of seven members: the Office Bearers (Stewart Regan, Chief Executive; Alan McRae, President; and Rod Petrie, Second Vice-President), plus Peter Lawell (SPL), Gary Hughes, Ralph Topping (SPL), Tom Johnston (Junior FA) and Barrie Jackson, the Scottish FA’s first-ever independent non-executive director.

 

A certain name sticks out there.

 

Could it be the responsibilty of the Professional Game board. Its members are a majority from the SPFL

Chairman: Rod Petrie (Scottish FA)
Members: Alan McRae (Scottish FA), Stewart Regan (Scottish FA), Ralph Topping (SPFL), Peter Lawell (SPFL), Neil Doncaster (SPFL), Duncan Fraser (SPFL), Mike Mulraney (SPFL), Sandy Stables (SHFL) and Andrew Waddell (SLFL).

 

It could be argued that they have done their bit by providing an access route to the SPFL with the introduction of the Lowland league. The two feeder leagues to the SPFL was introduced as a compromise as the SPFL originally wanted a conference style feeder league.  Or are this group of ten blazers responsible for holding back the non-league game in Scotland.  If so why are supporters not lobbying these people?

 

Or could the Non-Professional Game Board: be held accountable?  Take your pick from

Chairman: Alan McRae (Scottish FA)
Members: Rod Petrie (Scottish FA), Stewart Regan (Scottish FA), Thomas McKeown (Scottish Amateur FA), Tom Johnston (Scottish Junior FA), John Gold (Scottish Schools' FA), John Campbell (Scottish Welfare FA), Fiona Cardwell (Scottish Women's Football), David Little (Scottish Youth FA), Tom Brown (East of Scotland Football League), Colin Holden (South of Scotland Football League).

 

Just who has the responsibility to take forward the non-league game in Scotland?

Edited by Cicero

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But for enough clubs to be in that situation you'd need junior teams to get licensed, and then you'd be even more annoyed that they would be able to compete in the Scottish without being members yet.

So what is it you actually want?

Pretty sure licenced clubs are pretty much guaranteed to become member clubs, criteria is the same.

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I am always reading from certain posters that the SFA should take more responsibility for the restructuring of non-league football.  What I want to know is who at the SFA should be held accountable for this?

 

As far as I know the Chief executive (presently Stuart Reagan) is responsible for overseeing the development of the game in Scotland.  Does that mean, he has the power to tell the likes of the top junior clubs to form a "West of Scotland League" like the East and South of Scotland leagues?  I would say not. 

 

I also believe that he is also ultimately responsible for administration of the game, so could he blackmail clubs in certain leagues to force them to do something for "the good of the game" to do something that their members do not wish them to do?  Again I would say that is beyond his remit.

 

If it is not solely Reagan's responsibility then is it the responsibility of the main Board? 

 

The main Board consists of seven members: the Office Bearers (Stewart Regan, Chief Executive; Alan McRae, President; and Rod Petrie, Second Vice-President), plus Peter Lawell (SPL), Gary Hughes, Ralph Topping (SPL), Tom Johnston (Junior FA) and Barrie Jackson, the Scottish FA’s first-ever independent non-executive director.

 

A certain name sticks out there.

 

Could it be the responsibilty of the Professional Game board. Its members are a majority from the SPFL

Chairman: Rod Petrie (Scottish FA)

Members: Alan McRae (Scottish FA), Stewart Regan (Scottish FA), Ralph Topping (SPFL), Peter Lawell (SPFL), Neil Doncaster (SPFL), Duncan Fraser (SPFL), Mike Mulraney (SPFL), Sandy Stables (SHFL) and Andrew Waddell (SLFL).

 

It could be argued that they have done their bit by providing an access route to the SPFL with the introduction of the Lowland league. The two feeder leagues to the SPFL was introduced as a compromise as the SPFL originally wanted a conference style feeder league.  Or are this group of ten blazers responsible for holding back the non-league game in Scotland.  If so why are supporters not lobbying these people?

 

Or could the Non-Professional Game Board: be held accountable?  Take your pick from

Chairman: Alan McRae (Scottish FA)

Members: Rod Petrie (Scottish FA), Stewart Regan (Scottish FA), Thomas McKeown (Scottish Amateur FA), Tom Johnston (Scottish Junior FA), John Gold (Scottish Schools' FA), John Campbell (Scottish Welfare FA), Fiona Cardwell (Scottish Women's Football), David Little (Scottish Youth FA), Tom Brown (East of Scotland Football League), Colin Holden (South of Scotland Football League).

 

Just who has the responsibility to take forward the non-league game in Scotland?

As far as I'm aware Reagan was tasked with setting up a pyramid system after the McLeish report.

I`m sure he thinks he`s achieved that!

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As far as I'm aware Reagan was tasked with setting up a pyramid system after the McLeish report.

I`m sure he thinks he`s achieved that!

And he has according a more people than just him. 

 

However the juniors are choosing not to take part, are you now suggesting that Regan should now be imposing sanctions against the juniors?  If so what, in his power, should he personally be doing?

Edited by Cicero

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Given that the vast majority of non-league clubs are Junior would it not have made sense to find out what they wanted to come on board before setting up the pyramid?

 

Like I said it suits the SFA just fine that they don't have to share the pie amongst another 160 odd clubs.

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The SFA means ultimately the clubs and affiliated groups that can vote at an AGM. A cartel of small part time clubs both inside and outside the SPFL hold a majority in that context and can and do use that majority to vote to give themselves subsidies generated mainly from the revenues attracted by armchair fan interest in the Old Firm in the Scottish Cup and the activities of the national team. A genuine pyramid would open up that subsidy trough to a much wider range of clubs and that would mean smaller portions for the existing full members. It shouldn't come as a shock, therefore, that the club licensing process unfolded in a way that kept the cartel intact. The fix was in from the beginning or at least since Gordon Smith departed the scene to be replaced by somebody that understood that longevity in the CEO post was related to keeping a majority of the full members happy rather than pushing a radical agenda.

Edited by LongTimeLurker

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Given that the vast majority of non-league clubs are Junior would it not have made sense to find out what they wanted to come on board before setting up the pyramid?

Like I said it suits the SFA just fine that they don't have to share the pie amongst another 160 odd clubs.

If every junior club strived to be licensed by say the end of the 2017-18 season and was something the junior fa looked to encourage then the pie would have to get shared to all of these teams regardless of whether they made up the pyramid or not. Over 100 new licensed teams within the space of one season would mean that the juniors could oro inlay still have their cake and eat it as the leagues would likely be able to remain the same.

If nothing else, licensing itself would give access to more income but for the paying punter it would improve the off the field amenities to a standard more akin to the 21st century. The cost is often seen as an issue here but if a team playing semi pro football ( as all junior sides are ) has let their ground fall to a standard that it needs loads to do to get it up to scratch then they don't deserve to be competing at that level. It's time the people who pay the money to get into these grounds were afforded far more in terms of the way they are treated.

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The SFA means ultimately the clubs and affiliated groups that can vote at an AGM. A cartel of small part time clubs both inside and outside the SFA hold a majority in that context and can and do use that majority to vote to give themselves subsidies generated mainly from the revenues attracted by armchair fan interest in the Old Firm in the Scottish Cup and the activities of the national team. A genuine pyramid would open up that subsidy trough to a much wider range of clubs and that would mean smaller portions for the existing full members. It shouldn't come as a shock, therefore, that the club licensing process unfolded in a way that kept the cartel intact. The fix was in from the beginning or at least since Gordon Smith departed the scene to be replaced by somebody that understood that longevity in the CEO post was related to keeping a majority of the full members happy rather than pushing a radical agenda.

Get licensed. Become full members. Get more of the pie. It's that simple.

It's not a closed shop. The LL might be and the HFL might be atm but the opportunity to become full members and participate in the competition that brings these riches ( as well as the handouts for being a full

Member club) are still accessible as a junior side right now. Ask lithgae, ask girvan, ask banks o dee.

Edited by surely not!

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