Medda to go for share issue

[Talbot Bing]

Nick Leeson in a Talbot blazer.

It's a Kilbirnie one. ;D

[jazzy]

Players are entitled to whatever a club is willing to pay them, what's happened at Meadow is no fault of any player, if you were offered more money in your own job I doubt if many would say no that's fine I earn enough so forget the rise.

The previous committee have been caught out here by living beyond their means, the same thing happened at Whitburn when I was on that committee, they wouldn't be told about the high wages that were getting paid out and eventually paid the price and tumbled down the divisions.

Although I feel for the new committee that's now running the club, I don't think that there is any way out for them other than clearing off all the outstanding debts and starting again in whatever league they find themselves in. Good luck to them and hopefully they can sort out the financial mess they find themselves in

Point is mate if a player sees playing for a Junior team as a job he is seriously deluded . Junior football is for most a hobby or a pastime. Players get too much Simple

[HTG]

A lot of talk about how a Junior team manages to get into substantial difficulty, if it can happen to one of the largest clubs in Scotlandt then it is not hard to imagine how it is happening here, bottom line, poorly run, little regard for income and expenditure and worst still the law of the land if as suggested in several posts HMRC IS owed.

The tax bill is referred to in the article linked on page 1.

[BLASTIEBOY]

Being more serious for a wee while, what an awful situation.

I don't know the kind of money which rattles around in Junior football but I can't see a club having a turnover which would merit spiralling them into this kind of debt without something fishy going on.

I remember a few weeks back a Troon player letting slip that players' were funding (at least partly) their mortgages with wages from their club.

Much as we love it, Junior football is not all that. Clubs should never be paying wages of this level. Attendances can't support that, sponsors are not that daft, and there's only so many fundraisers supporters can contribute to before saying "Enough".

Hopefully all other clubs will take note of this and not be so daft.

As for the share issue, it will be a donation from fans in reality. Alistair Campbell couldn't spin it to be an investment.

Good luck to Meadow.........but I have to admit to having a wee feeling of "hell mend them"!

Do you honestly think there are any clubs not paying wages of this level? Including Talbot, if you think for one minute that Talbot don't then you are a bit deluded. And if you think players taking in the region of £600 a month don't rely on this kind of financial top up then you are equally deluded. Every club in the premier league must offer some wages over a ton a week or they would attract no-one. It's the ability to live within their means that drive it to success or failure. Teams can survive if they spend what they have and stay within that. If you want more you work harder, simple fact of life, and some teams work really hard to achieve this. Talbot included, but don't kid yourself by claiming they are not guilty of paying big wages and don't think for a minute the wages don't pay the bills. They do. Junior football is all that to some.

[Shanner]

Point is mate if a player sees playing for a Junior team as a job he is seriously deluded . Junior football is for most a hobby or a pastime. Players get too much Simple

define "too much".

their services are worth what the highest bidder is willing to pay.

Also most will already work Mon to Fri and treat junior football as a very welcome second income stream. Whether they regard it as a job or a lucrative hobby is neither here nor there.

folk should probably remember that if the clubs weren't paying the wages we'd be watching a lesser standard as the players all disappeared Lowland Leaguewards.

[drs]

Let them go then.

 

They wont be missed.

[Shanner]

Let them go then.

They wont be missed.

for having the audacity to accept more money for their services?

they most assuredly would be missed when they were replaced with sub standard shite who were only there because they couldn't get anything better. That is unless there's a fabled generation of throwbacks to a non existent bygone age when putting food on the table for your family came a distant second to the integrity of your weekend hobby.

aye right

[drs]

If you are signing ANYONE based on them telling you they can get more in the LL then don't sign them - let other clubs in a different level of football sign them.

 

And anyway its Junior football not fecking Barcelona v Bayern, if you want to watch quality then go and watch it as you aint going to be seeing Messi in the Juniors - if the players at this level were any good in the first instance they wouldn't be playing Junior football.

 

Sorry but if clubs are stupid enough to overplay mediocre players and bankrupt themselves they have no one to blame but themselves, its really quite simple to understand so I can see why you cant.

[Shanner]

this is absolutely 100% correct.

football players have a skill that can be used to earn money and make their (& their families ) lives more comfortable. The idea that any working class guy should knock back an additional income source is mental. It might be the difference between a comfortable life and a struggle.

The only fault lies with those writing contracts they can't honour.

 

 

If you are signing ANYONE based on them telling you they can get more in the LL then don't sign them - let other clubs in a different level of football sign them.

 

And anyway its Junior football not fecking Barcelona v Bayern, if you want to watch quality then go and watch it as you aint going to be seeing Messi in the Juniors - if the players at this level were any good in the first instance they wouldn't be playing Junior football.

 

Sorry but if clubs are stupid enough to overplay mediocre players and bankrupt themselves they have no one to blame but themselves, its really quite simple to understand so I can see why you cant.

 

Starting with your last paragraph - if you have a wee read at the thread you'll see that this was my point in the first place and nowhere have I said otherwise. If all else fails why not try a straw man argument though, eh? 

[Man on a bike]

I would hope that any supporter thinking of investing in Irvine Meadow looks closely a what is on offer, and also make sure the money will be spent in the future in the manner intended. Things in writing, like the limited company memorandum and articles. 

 

I am concerned that the Daily Record refers to the club creating a private limited company so they can sell shares in it. Why would they want to do that?

 

1. If it is Irvine Meadow the football club that has the debt, what is their legal setup? 

NOTE: Nothing at companies house to say the FC is a company limited either by shares or by guarantee, so therefore assume they are an unincorporated association. 

 

2. What organisation owes the tax man? 

NOTE:  If they are unincorporated then the committee will be personally liable for that debt. 

Not all equally, just any of them who have a house that can be sold so the taxman can get what he is owed. 

 

3. Why create a new company (limited by shares?) to attract money from supporters? Why not just get money into Irvine Meadow FC?

 

4. There is an enormous amount of legislation about offering shares to the public. Have these been followed? This is an expensive business.

 

5. How is any money that is raised going to be used? What checks and balances will there be? Who will be in charge of it? I would expect at least a couple of people with professional qualifications playing an active role and taking legal responsibility. 

 

6. What would the aims of the limited company be? What do the investors get in return? Will there be any major investors? Who will the directors be? And how decided? Any individual or consortium owning 26, 51 or 76% of the issued shares?

 

Don't want to be too negative here, but this smacks of the committee making sure that no one else gets in the door to run the club, so a load of cash goes into a separate company which lobs money to the tax man to ensure their personal liabilities are sorted out. Some comments on here about personal guarantees. And 'mystery' investors. For gawd's sake, if the club is that close to the brink, why work with smoke and mirrors, Spell it out as it is.  

 

When all debts cleared and personal liabilities cleared, the limited company closes down and things go one as before? Hardly moving ahead!

 

And a worst case scenario, money comes into this shell non trading limited company, and a couple of directors who sign the cheques load the money into their own accounts and then wind up the limited company. 

 

As I am sure there is neither a Mister Green or a Mister Whyte involved in this, any scheme like this (assuming it is legal) must protect all its investors against such people and the opportunism that happens when cash is at hand. I suspect the Rangers case study is well known in that part of Ayrshire. Read and understand. 

 

Junior football has a very poor reputation with funders generally, and from what I am seeing here, there is nothing that would reassure me that the well being of the football club and its future success is the priority above all else.

 

Too vague, too many lurking skeletons we don't know anything about, and the whole thing unnecessarily complicated, and possibly illegal from the information provided to date on P&B and the club website. 

 

That doesn't mean to say there aren't answers to the problems of the club. But I can't see this approach being an answer. 

[meadowx1]

Meadow overspent and the Golf thing was just stupid money, 

The Hibs game saved us and filled the hole left for that season.

 

The debt then was about £40K

 

Told that lessons were learned and money was raised, and is still be raised,

some specifically for the clearing of debts and righting the ship.

 

And 6/7 years later the debt has doubled.

 

No lessons have been learned

No debt reduction has taken place

Debt has been repaid rather than more than doubled, I take it that you werent at the Meeting. I understand your angst but the numbers you have quoted are totally wrong as is the impression that you have given that the Committee have carried on regardless. Wages year on year have reduced and Debt repaid. They havent reduced fast enough but they have reduced.

It is a fucking shambles of an affair.

 

To sick to add any more.

[jazzy]

If you are signing ANYONE based on them telling you they can get more in the LL then don't sign them - let other clubs in a different level of football sign them.

And anyway its Junior football not fecking Barcelona v Bayern, if you want to watch quality then go and watch it as you aint going to be seeing Messi in the Juniors - if the players at this level were any good in the first instance they wouldn't be playing Junior football.

Sorry but if clubs are stupid enough to overplay mediocre players and bankrupt themselves they have no one to blame but themselves, its really quite simple to understand so I can see why you cant.

HEAR HEAR

[cboats]

I would hope that any supporter thinking of investing in Irvine Meadow looks closely a what is on offer, and also make sure the money will be spent in the future in the manner intended. Things in writing, like the limited company memorandum and articles.

I am concerned that the Daily Record refers to the club creating a private limited company so they can sell shares in it. Why would they want to do that?

1. If it is Irvine Meadow the football club that has the debt, what is their legal setup?

NOTE: Nothing at companies house to say the FC is a company limited either by shares or by guarantee, so therefore assume they are an unincorporated association.

2. What organisation owes the tax man?

NOTE: If they are unincorporated then the committee will be personally liable for that debt.

Not all equally, just any of them who have a house that can be sold so the taxman can get what he is owed.

3. Why create a new company (limited by shares?) to attract money from supporters? Why not just get money into Irvine Meadow FC?

4. There is an enormous amount of legislation about offering shares to the public. Have these been followed? This is an expensive business.

5. How is any money that is raised going to be used? What checks and balances will there be? Who will be in charge of it? I would expect at least a couple of people with professional qualifications playing an active role and taking legal responsibility.

6. What would the aims of the limited company be? What do the investors get in return? Will there be any major investors? Who will the directors be? And how decided? Any individual or consortium owning 26, 51 or 76% of the issued shares?

Don't want to be too negative here, but this smacks of the committee making sure that no one else gets in the door to run the club, so a load of cash goes into a separate company which lobs money to the tax man to ensure their personal liabilities are sorted out. Some comments on here about personal guarantees. And 'mystery' investors. For gawd's sake, if the club is that close to the brink, why work with smoke and mirrors, Spell it out as it is.

When all debts cleared and personal liabilities cleared, the limited company closes down and things go one as before? Hardly moving ahead!

And a worst case scenario, money comes into this shell non trading limited company, and a couple of directors who sign the cheques load the money into their own accounts and then wind up the limited company.

As I am sure there is neither a Mister Green or a Mister Whyte involved in this, any scheme like this (assuming it is legal) must protect all its investors against such people and the opportunism that happens when cash is at hand. I suspect the Rangers case study is well known in that part of Ayrshire. Read and understand.

Junior football has a very poor reputation with funders generally, and from what I am seeing here, there is nothing that would reassure me that the well being of the football club and its future success is the priority above all else.

Too vague, too many lurking skeletons we don't know anything about, and the whole thing unnecessarily complicated, and possibly illegal from the information provided to date on P&B and the club website.

That doesn't mean to say there aren't answers to the problems of the club. But I can't see this approach being an answer.

great post mate

[meddabhoy]

If you are signing ANYONE based on them telling you they can get more in the LL then don't sign them - let other clubs in a different level of football sign them.

And anyway its Junior football not fecking Barcelona v Bayern, if you want to watch quality then go and watch it as you aint going to be seeing Messi in the Juniors - if the players at this level were any good in the first instance they wouldn't be playing Junior football.

Sorry but if clubs are stupid enough to overplay mediocre players and bankrupt themselves they have no one to blame but themselves, its really quite simple to understand so I can see why you cant.

Shite mate. So your saying those watching juniors should expect a lesser level of standard than say league 2, why? Recent Scottish cup results prove there's nothing between the top junior teams and league 1 & 2. And players don't play junior football as they can't get any higher, they play as it can suit there family and work commitments. theres boys playing top end of amateur game that could go much further but don't cause it doesn't suit them doesn't mean there at the level they belong at.

[wintonfan]

what I would love to know is why havent meadow learned the lessons from the late 80's when the social club went pete tong and left a load of debt, Meadow sold off land and built houses to clear that debt and for a time they were in the black. Now it sounds far worse and the thing that concerns me about a share issue and having seen what happened at winton rovers in the 90's if the shares end up in the wrong hands what is to stop shareholders selling the entire land, put the club out of business and build houses and make a killing for themselves. It is a heck of a dodgy game to play, how many clubs sold their grounds and ended up in the broon stuff, Kirkintilloch, Ballieston, Bellshill are 3 that spring to mind, yes there has been the success of late of Renfrew and Benburb but the property market is in a slump atm

 

If meadow need the readies then they must look at other options, but please learn the lessons of the past

[HTG]

Shite mate. So your saying those watching juniors should expect a lesser level of standard than say league 2, why? Recent Scottish cup results prove there's nothing between the top junior teams and league 1 & 2. And players don't play junior football as they can't get any higher, they play as it can suit there family and work commitments. theres boys playing top end of amateur game that could go much further but don't cause it doesn't suit them doesn't mean there at the level they belong at.

In general people watching League 1 and League 2 are well entitled to expect to be watching better players than in the juniors. They pay more for the privilege, their clubs generate more income, they generally pay better wages. Just like you'd expect to see better players at Talbot than at Kello so you should expect Forfar Athletic to be better than Linlithgow. The fact we got a cup result against them doesn't mean we'd do the same on a repeat basis. We got pumped off Kilwinning within weeks.

[superbigal]

To be fair to players of all Junior teams. Those signed pro are technically entitled to minimum wage. That covers a certain amount of time a week if they train twice and attend all home and away matches. Wont bore you with the details but in theory someone at Forfar Albion or Royal Albert is technically due at least £50 a week.

All it will take is a player to complain to the nmw people and it all could kick off.

 

The junior model could hardly cover £50 a player at superleague level.

[meddabhoy]

In general people watching League 1 and League 2 are well entitled to expect to be watching better players than in the juniors. They pay more for the privilege, their clubs generate more income, they generally pay better wages. Just like you'd expect to see better players at Talbot than at Kello so you should expect Forfar Athletic to be better than Linlithgow. The fact we got a cup result against them doesn't mean we'd do the same on a repeat basis. We got pumped off Kilwinning within weeks.

If you watched league 1&2 regularly you would see the standard isn't great mate(Dunfermline apart as not sure if there ft or not) one off games don't always tell the story. I knew watching Linlithgow against the medda that the buffs would turn them over not due to being better but down to the schedule yous had before hand. And as for the prices they get charged to watch they leagues is ridiculous, I often clock the back of the local paper advertising the Ayr game for £15, no wonder attendances are poor. The point I was making though was also about players playing junior aren't doing so just because that's the standard of play there at, work and family commitments mostly affect it as well

[redstarbenhar]

Any organisation which does not pay taxes in order steal a march on their competitors is morally bankrupt. Any victory gained is hollow and without honour. Junior clubs have rich community based histories and in order to protect this diligent stewardship should be top of the agenda of those in charge. When there is success on the pitch fans can be blinded by glory but they should always take time to hold to account those who steward the club.

In this case of Irvine Meadow I would also question the diligence of the institutions and organisations who gave them credit given their poor past credit history.

Hopefully they will survive...but they have no- one but themselves to blame.

[theesel1994]

To be fair to players of all Junior teams. Those signed pro are technically entitled to minimum wage. 

 

And from April, those over 25 will be entitled to the Living Wage.