invergowrie arab Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Also, are we likely to see unanimity within the SNP ranks on the issue of Europe? 1. The SNP will not be part of any cross party In campaign 2. Within the membership there is no unanimity. There remains a small but significant number of the old guard who see the EU as an infringement of Scotland's sovereignty and a lot of those old guard are from farming and fishing areas who often are quite anti-EU. However, party policy is clear. We stay in and will campaign* to stay in. * send out a leaflet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lichtgilphead Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 ... Are you inviting me to expand on my point? If so, let me put it another way. The "Remain" campaigns for the red & blue tories will be based upon what they consider to be best for the UK. As I state above, the SNP will campaign for whatever they consider to be best for Scotland. "Best for the UK" does not necessarily equal "Best for Scotland". Accordingly, the reasons given by SNP are unlikely to totally coincide with the other "remain" campaigns. As such, they won't be campaigning shoulder to shoulder. In response to your second point, there are individual SNP members who are very anti-EU. The party line is going to be "remain". That's not significantly different from the other major parties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nizzy Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 1. The SNP will not be part of any cross party In campaign 2. Within the membership there is no unanimity. There remains a small but significant number of the old guard who see the EU as an infringement of Scotland's sovereignty and a lot of those old guard are from farming and fishing areas who often are quite anti-EU. However, party policy is clear. We stay in and will campaign* to stay in. * send out a leaflet. Interesting reading, ta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nizzy Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Are you inviting me to expand on my point? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Rational Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Will the FM and the SNP membership stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the red and blue tories in support of an in vote or is she/are they likely to campaign independently of other parties' supporters? There's not a snowballs chance in hell of them sharing a platform with either IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 And the arch-pedant appears, as if by magic, ready to split hairs over the tiniest nuance. In response to his nonsense, I googled "independence scotland out of europe". The first result is the Scotsman's referendum website page on the EU. http://www.scotsman.com/scottish-independence/key-topic/european-union/ "The Scotsman revealed the advice of the President of the European Commission...that Scotland would cease to be members of the EU on becoming independent" I take that as meaning that we would have been kicked out. That was the headline that all the unionist press went with at the time. It's been pointed out plenty times before that a large number of newspaper readers don't bother reading past the headline to get the full story buried deep in the last couple of paragraphs. "Ceas[ing] to be members" is not the same as "being kicked out". Secession of our territory from that of an EU member-state would be a voluntary act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Medeiros Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 No they didn't. They said that we'd have to reapply for membership in our own right and could risk losing the UK's legal entitlements to opt-outs and reservations, and that the legal process for such an application would be difficult and would require unanimous agreement of all the existing member-states to function. You know fine well some countries are desperate to get into the EU, and others the EU are desperate to keep. Rich ol' Scotland, heavily involved in Common agriculture and fishing policies, would receive an identical membership to which we currently have. But you know this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 All Scots have been EU citizens for the last 40 years. The continuation of this will be agreed long before we become independent therefore there will be no need to re-apply. This was discussed endlessly in 2014. EU citizenship rights are irrelevant to this question. All would-be Scottish citizens would be entitled to retain British citizenship on secession. There's precedent for this: Ireland. This would be the basis on which no one could be involuntarily deprived of their corollary EU citizenship rights, as they would retain the right to be a citizen of the member-state giving rise to their EU citizenship. This would give them all of the rights they have as EU citizens in respect of the territory to which the acquis communautaire applies. This includes and only includes the territory so designated in relation to the relevant member-states. Since the UK definitionally would no longer exercise control over the laws of an independent Scotland, that part of the UK would cease both in international and EU law's interaction with it, to come under the auspices of the acquis communautaire. A Scot who retains British citizenship, whether automatically or by election and whether instead of or in addition to Scottish citizenship(depending on the arrangements reached in the event of secession) would be able to exercise EU citizenship rights in the rest of the UK and in the rest of the European Union, but not in Scotland. No EU citizen could continue to rely on their citizenship rights under the Lisbon Treaty to exercise free movement rights or anything related to it, except insofar as an independent Scotland unilaterally undertook to respect those claims of right. The only way this could not be the case, is if Scotland went through the ordinary Treaty application process or all member-states unanimously agreed to a Treaty change to circumvent that requirement. Put simply, it would have to reapply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 You know fine well some countries are desperate to get into the EU, and others the EU are desperate to keep. Rich ol' Scotland, heavily involved in Common agriculture and fishing policies, would receive an identical membership to which we currently have. But you know this. There is no reason to believe that Scotland would be certain to get all of: 1. An unconditional and indefinite opt-out from joining the Euro 2. An identical or better set of obligations and entitlements with respect to the EU budget as the UK gets now 3. An unconditional and indefinite opt-out from joining the Schengen Area 4. Reservations in relation to security and criminal justice the UK has now 5. All specific exemptions and reservations from every EU law ever passed as it applies to the UK just now It would probably get some of it, and you might think that some of these things are relatively unimportant, but that's not the same as us being a member on the same terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wotad Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 excited to see how this goes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Scotland has never applied to be in the EU therefore we would not have to re-apply. We have been part of the EU for the last 40 years. Between the date of the vote for independence and the date of independence itself arrangements will be made for the seamless continuation of our membership. If this does not happen (and it is in the interests of absolutely no-one to temporarily disrupt the single market) then we will have to make our first application for membership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wotad Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Why are people even listening to what Galloway says anymore? he made good points but i hate the man Scotland has never applied to be in the EU therefore we would not have to re-apply. We have been part of the EU for the last 40 years. Between the date of the vote for independence and the date of independence itself arrangements will be made for the seamless continuation of our membership. If this does not happen (and it is in the interests of absolutely no-one to temporarily disrupt the single market) then we will have to make our first application for membership. You have been part of the EU , UNDER THE UK you would need to re apply as you would be leaving when the UK votes to leave. Also if Scots think you will get the same as the UK have now your incredibly naive , the UK has a better deal cause we matter to the EU.. Scotland on the other hand is a small irrelevant player by its self. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 There will be a period of time between the UK voting to leave and the UK's date of departure. Ample time for us to ensure the continuation of our membership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Ad lib feckin the thread up again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee Willie Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 "Scotland" has never been a member of the European Union. and neither has 'England' and the 'rest of the UK'. Using your logic, If Scotland had to apply to join the EU so will rUK as neither on their own have been part of the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wotad Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 There will be a period of time between the UK voting to leave and the UK's date of departure. Ample time for us to ensure the continuation of our membership. They will be fighting to keep the UK if we vote to leave and will most get us to vote again, wont have time to worry about Scotland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lichtgilphead Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 "Ceas[ing] to be members" is not the same as "being kicked out". Secession of our territory from that of an EU member-state would be a voluntary act. Project Fear's view (which they stated both loudly & often) was that an independent Scotland would no longer be a member of the EU. Sadly (and unsurprisingly) you seem to be deliberately ignoring this actual point. I'm not interested in debating the difference between "ceasing to be members" and "being kicked out". I can't imagine anyone else is interested in the difference either. If they are, they can continue the debate. However, I'm not bothering to contribute further to another Libby borefest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 They won't give a f**k about the UK if we vote no. Don't kid yourself otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bairn Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Anyone got a tl;dr on the impact to random individuals on this? Dunno who to vote for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doulikefish Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Anyone got a tl;dr on the impact to random individuals on this? Dunno who to vote forNo eurovision or ryder cupVote yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.