welshbairn Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 The EU is not an island reliant on shipping for 70 to 90% of it's consumed goods. Have you ever been around Rotterdam docks? The scale is astonishing. Anecdotal I know, but Europe is hugely dependent on external trade for its wealth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonedsailor Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Have you ever been around Rotterdam docks? The scale is astonishing. Anecdotal I know, but Europe is hugely dependent on external trade for its wealth.I have sailed to most large European docks. I don't see your point. My original point was about cabotage, you are now talking about global shipping. Rotterdam is a hub for European global shipping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 I have sailed to most large European docks. I don't see your point. My original point was about cabotage, you are now talking about global shipping. Rotterdam is a hub for European global shipping. Well you brought up the Empire and shifting our trade away from Europe. What's that if not global? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Absolutely spot in IMO. Had the argument with my uber nationalistic brother yesterday. Hardly. Scottish independence was never about isolation - it was, and still is about being able to choose the levels of interdependence with others. Attempting to conflate the federal EU with the incorporating UK is nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonedsailor Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Well you brought up the Empire and shifting our trade away from Europe. What's that if not global? My point was the Jones act. The EU has no control over global labour laws, nor does the UK. Pointless to bring it up. My rhetoric re Empire building was to address the point of why I believe the UK would look after her seafarers better than the EU are looking after their seafarers. We may have smaller areas of sea to use as protection but some protection is better than none. There are ships from all over the world with entirely non EU crews servicing the oil industry in the North Sea, a European version of the Jones act would ensure every seafarer and vessel working that sector was EU crewed, owned, registered and built. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 My point was the Jones act. The EU has no control over global labour laws, nor does the UK. Pointless to bring it up. My rhetoric re Empire building was to address the point of why I believe the UK would look after her seafarers better than the EU are looking after their seafarers. We may have smaller areas of sea to use as protection but some protection is better than none. There are ships from all over the world with entirely non EU crews servicing the oil industry in the North Sea, a European version of the Jones act would ensure every seafarer and vessel working that sector was EU crewed, owned, registered and built. I would suggest you've got a better chance of that happening, however slim, under an EU umbrella than expecting British Industry to allow the Government to dramatically increase their shipping costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigOutYourSoul Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 I'll be voting to stay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonedsailor Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 I would suggest you've got a better chance of that happening, however slim, under an EU umbrella than expecting British Industry to allow the Government to dramatically increase their shipping costs.I already covered this. The EU have rejected the calls from seafarers for 30 years, at every single European Seafarers Convention. A more isolated UK would become reliant on her merchant fleet again, primarily for trade but also for military back up, any UK registered vessel can be comondeered in time of war. These would have to be UK crewed when comondeered for security reasons. The UK is a warmongering nation by nature so steps would have to be taken to ensure that skilled manning levels are available if required. At less than 8000 registered British seafarers that manning is just not available for a large conflict. Steps would have to be taken to ensure the vital role of the seafarer is protected in a non EU UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooky Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 After a fair bit of consideration, I've decided that I'm going to vote to leave. Think for Boris this is very much a win-win situation. Fair play to the other cabinet ministers backing leave, something to be said for sticking to your principles rather than just following the official government line. I'd imagine it must have been a difficult choice for Michael Gove, him and Dave go way back as close personal friends. Whilst I know he's not the most popular Tory MP, I've a lot of respect for him. Thought he was good in education and he's doing a great job in justice, rolling back most of Grayling's awful reforms. I still think we'll vote to stay in and I don't think it'll be a disaster whichever way we vote. I'm just dreading spending the next few months hearing "staying inside a reformed EU or taking a leap in the dark." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doulikefish Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 The Jones act states that all cabotage in American waters should be by US citizens on US owned and built vessels. There is legislation in there about safety too. You googled it and saw this, not memory at all. Nope i was doing it from memory trying to remember all the different regs for working in different waters worldwide when i worked on the project team in shipyards which is an absolute fuddle of paperworkYou of course must work on on one of the last few "british" flagged ships if you think if we leave the eu then companies will suddenly all start using only british sailors them your as mad as boris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Nope i was doing it from memory trying to remember all the different regs for working in different waters worldwide when i worked on the project team in shipyards which is an absolute fuddle of paperwork You of course must work on on one of the last few "british" flagged ships if you think if we leave the eu then companies will suddenly all start using only british sailors them your as mad as boris i woud probably have put things a bit more diplomatically, but I can't see a BREXIT benefiting British seamen. For starters, where are they all going to come from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doulikefish Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 i woud probably have put things a bit more diplomatically, but I can't see a BREXIT benefiting British seamen. For starters, where are they all going to come from?I do have sympathy for stonefsailor but it aint happening when the savings to be made are huge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doulikefish Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 I still think we'll vote to stay in and I don't think it'll be a disaster whichever way we vote. I'm just dreading spending the next few months hearing "staying inside a reformed EU or taking a leap in the dark."Irony alert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonedsailor Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Nope i was doing it from memory trying to remember all the different regs for working in different waters worldwide when i worked on the project team in shipyards which is an absolute fuddle of paperwork You of course must work on on one of the last few "british" flagged ships if you think if we leave the eu then companies will suddenly all start using only british sailors them your as mad as boris Please refer to my posts on defence etc for clarification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Please refer to my posts on defence etc for clarification. I don't see how the defence situation would change if we left the EU. Presumably we'd stay in NATO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doulikefish Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Please refer to my posts on defence etc for clarification.Yip i have and it still isnt happening if we leave the eu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 We are an island nation, we built the biggest empire the planet has seen due to our nautical prowess. If we isolate ourselves a little more from Europe the maritime industry will benefit. I don't think it is a coincidence that the decline of our merchant fleet and our membership of the EC started around the same time. We won the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Unbelievable. BBC had something similar in run up to Scottish referendum if I remember http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-35598892 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonedsailor Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 I don't see how the defence situation would change if we left the EU. Presumably we'd stay in NATO. British troops and equipment would be transported on British ships. The RN do not have cargo ships and an expanded RFA would serve the same purposes as I seek. More jobs for British Merchant seafarers. The RFA is manned by civilian reservists, having only gained reserve status recently for purposes of rights under the Geneva Convention. Yip i have and it still isnt happening if we leave the eu I doubt your knowledge otherwise you would know that the safety of US sailors covered by the Jones act has been superceded by SOLAS regulations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doulikefish Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 I doubt your knowledge otherwise you would know that the safety of US sailors covered by the Jones act has been superceded by SOLAS regulations.I spent 4 years in shipyards going over regs from all over the world,ive worked 20 odd years at sea snd im a master mariner,my first reply was to your post about jones and eu,your now shifting the goal posts of your first postAs i said im not um sympathetic to your view as it affects me aswell,but from being at meetings etc and at the sharp end companies will always look at the cheapest option and being outside the eu wont change it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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