sparky88 Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Scotland's elected first minister requests that the referendum wait until well after the Holyrood elections. David Cameron ignores her. So much for the "respect agenda". Still think we're a partnership of equals, folks?I'm spitting feathers, it's an outrage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 I'm spitting feathers, it's an outrage. We know you're not outraged Squiddy. You'd have held them on the same day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparky88 Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 We know you're not outraged Squiddy. You'd have held them on the same day.It would be a better idea than holding it in June actually. Plenty of other votes have been held on the same day before like holyrood and council elections so don't really see what the problem is. I've got enough faith in the Scottish people to think they can cope with both campaigns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 It would be a better idea than holding it in June actually. Plenty of other votes have been held on the same day before like holyrood and council elections so don't really see what the problem is. I've got enough faith in the Scottish people to think they can cope with both campaigns. Yep, because council elections are just like a national referendum on something as important as whether to leave the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zetterlund Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 When were bus stop sizes standardised across Europe? It would likely be impossible to find out but it's a story I remember from the local paper years ago. It's obviously an extreme example but EU bureaucracy is a regular source of FFS moments at work and it all just smacks of creating unproductive jobs for suits. The EU is a basket case at the moment anyway, specifically with the migrant crisis raising doubts about the future of the Schengen agreement. Then you have the ongoing economic problems in several member states which just get kicked further along the road rather than actually addressed, loading more debt onto already terminally-indebted nations while stripping them of their assets. This seems to be the EU way. If the UK wasn't already in the EU, who in their right mind would vote to join it under these circumstances? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparky88 Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Yep, because council elections are just like a national referendum on something as important as whether to leave the EU.I still don't see what the problem is. I think most people can cope with thinking about two separate votes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 I still don't see what the problem is. I think most people can cope with thinking about two separate votes. Ach, I don't think it's a massive problem either. I don't think it's ideal to have two big national 'campaigns' going on at the same time. And I think the point is that because the Holyrood election is only a national campaign in Scotland, that doesn't really matter. We certainly wouldn't be having a major referendum like this anywhere near a WM election. I think it's fairly likely both campaigns/debates will suffer through being so close but it won't make a material difference to either. To be honest, it's just another proxy argument for nationalists and unionists to get into (like Gaelic on road signs). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invergowrie arab Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 I still don't see what the problem is. I think most people can cope with thinking about two separate votes. Except we have an actual example of when this happened in recent history and it caused record numbers of spoiled ballots and the subsequent investigation concluded that local and national elections shouldn't be held on the same day. Great contribution otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyerTon Posted February 21, 2016 Author Share Posted February 21, 2016 Boris to campaign for 'leave' EU. Edit to add: That could mean Gideon becomes next PM if we vote to stay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doulikefish Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Boris to campaign for 'leave' EU. Edit to add: That could mean Gideon becomes next PM if we vote to stay. Boris obviously if we vote to leave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonMan Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Big coup for the Leave side. Will probably make Boris favourite to be the next Tory leader if we do vote to leave as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjw Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 According to Sunday politics Boris was still on the 'in side' until a meeting with Gove last week. It should will be interesting to hear his reason for changing sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonMan Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 According to Sunday politics Boris was still on the 'in side' until a meeting with Gove last week. It should will be interesting to hear his reason for changing sides. His reasoning will be to advance his own career. But for what he'll say, I expect he'll just argue that the reforms/changes aren't strong enough and that he's not convinced we've gotten a good deal. He'd kind of been teetering on the edge of 'Leave' for a while anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunning1874 Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Big gamble from Boris. If the vote is Stay he's fucked his chances of becoming PM, whereas siding with Stay and the vote going in favour of Leave wouldn't hurt him in the same way, as the rest of the credible rivals for the leadership will be campaigning to stay in anyway. It's not like Leave winning was actually going to make Michael fucking Gove a realistic option if he was most high profile Tory involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Big gamble from Boris. If the vote is Stay he's fucked his chances of becoming PM, whereas siding with Stay and the vote going in favour of Leave wouldn't hurt him in the same way, as the rest of the credible rivals for the leadership will be campaigning to stay in anyway. It's not like Leave winning was actually going to make Michael fucking Gove a realistic option if he was most high profile Tory involved. If you want to look at it in purely 'who's going to be next PM' terms and assume that anyone on the winning side gets a big boost to their chances of becoming PM, then Boris being the only high-profile Tory candidate on the out side is a good move. If he's just another 'inner' then his chances of winning a leadership election could be as low as 25%. That's lower than 'outs' chances of winning the referendum to start with so it's better to put your eggs in the 'out winning basket'. It's probably also the case that the people who will vote in the next Tory leadership election are much more likely to be 'out' than the population at large. 'Out' and therefore Boris will probably win the Tory membership in the referendum. We've already seen what happens to voters opinions of politicians who spend months trashing those voters views in the run up to a referendum. To put it crudely in SNP/indyref terms, you can lose the referendum but if you get a large enough vote and are the only big gun standing on the losing side, you end up with much more support than the multiple guns on the winning side. 45/1 is a hell of a lot bigger than 55/3. As long as the vote is relatively close, I can only see even a referendum loss helping Boris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Scotland has been in the EU for the last 40 years. I'm amazed that you aren't aware of this. You're searching for the quote that I told you to search for. Being "in the EU" is different from being "a member state of the EU". Bavaria, Scotland, Budapest, Vienna and Normandy are all "in the EU". None of them are or have ever been member-states. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invergowrie arab Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Yeah, it's nowhere near as simple as stay and Boris is fucked. He will still have the backing of grass roots Tories and local branches. It's a no lose for him IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Fair Do's A Nat who sometimes admits he was wrong?! Fair fucks. Surely the operation of international law in respect of the UK would have to look at the act of Union? Nope. International law doesn't care how you became a state. What matters is how you leave it and what is left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Big gamble from Boris. If the vote is Stay he's fucked his chances of becoming PM, whereas siding with Stay and the vote going in favour of Leave wouldn't hurt him in the same way, as the rest of the credible rivals for the leadership will be campaigning to stay in anyway. It's not like Leave winning was actually going to make Michael fucking Gove a realistic option if he was most high profile Tory involved. Smart move imo. He'll be able to tell the mainly anti Europe Tory leadership electorate that he gave it his best shot (assuming the result is to remain) and he's the man to vote for to hold Brussels to account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Successor/continuator states are down to political expediency as much as any form of principles. Its incredibly simplistic, perhaps wrong, to talk about precedent as there are so many exceptions to these precedents. Precedents in law have exceptions all the time. The point is the two main exceptions, the Czech-Slovak situation where neither seeks to inherit the legal personality of the predecessor state, and the Yugoslav situation, where the claim of inheritance was heavily disputed by several different states aren't analogous to a Scottish secession. I don't think Scotland could do that as we could not claim illegal occupation. It is entirely correct to say that legally Scotland was extinguished in 1707. In any case I'm not sure what vale there would he in claiming to be the pre 1707 continuator. Yep exactly. The Union precedes even the concept of belligerent occupation in international law and was in any case consensual. Denying the rUK claim to inherit the legal title of the UK would serve only to expel it from every treaty based organisation on the planet and would do nothing to advance Scotland's interests in respect of the same. Would Scotland be seceding from the UK or would we be dissolving the UK? I'm tempted to say you could make the case that Scotland was leaving and the united kingdom of England & northern Ireland was a legitimate continuator. So, would Scotland have to reapply to the EU? IMO Yes. Would it be a process concluded before independence day with no break in membership? IMO yes Would it be on the same basis as the UK is a member? Not necessarily but again this would be down to political expediency and negotiation. There is no guarantee we would be members on the same basis but I'm 100% sure the negotiations would be conducted, by both sides, in such a way as to ensure Scotland stayed in and therefore there is every reason to think we would negotiate a good deal. The sensible debate among the informed was always about how long negotiations would take to reach unanimity and on what terms. This was always the issue because of the Scottish Government's self-imposed timetable for Independence Day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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