General Politics Thread

[welshbairn]

Livingstone literally said Hitler 'was supporting Zionism'. 

 

"Supporting" doesn't have to mean being a fanboy. In this case it means supporting materially, which he did by facilitating the emigration (escape) of 60,000 German Jews into Palestine before 1939 after negotiating with Zionists to help get the boycott of German exports mitigated. This was a huge gain for the Zionist movement politically, forgetting about the lives saved. I don't think anyone was suggesting Hitler was a Zionist. He got rid of some Jews and gained a propaganda victory and some trade benefits before he started exterminating them in earnest.

Edited April 29, 2016 by welshbairn

[Savage Henry]

"Hitler was a Zionist" is the funniest thing I've seen on here since when Reynard insisted that Hitler was actually a massive lefty.

I haven't actually hear the quotes in context so it's a bit unfair for me to pass judgement, but I'm mightily surprised if Livingstone has actually said that intentionally. It's a pretty insane claim. I've always seen him as a rational version of George Galloway - who genuinely is anti-Semitic.

There is a propensity for the left - and conspiracy theories - to conflate all these terms. Many of these people should know better. Then of course the other side deliberately misinterprets political comment as racial prejudice, but the onus really is for people to check their language.

Political discourse regarding Israel, Zionism and anti-Semitism is shrouded in hyperbole. And very often people don't say what they actually mean. Whenever somebody claims that Jews aren't Semites, they are actually attempting to justify opinions they are too cowardly to express directly.

In short, Livingstone appears to have been daft, but it's almost impossible to tell what his motive was. And that in itself is inexcusable.

[welshbairn]

I haven't actually hear the quotes in context so it's a bit unfair for me to pass judgement, but I'm mightily surprised if Livingstone has actually said that intentionally. It's a pretty insane claim. I've always seen him as a rational version of George Galloway - who genuinely is anti-Semitic.

There is a propensity for the left - and conspiracy theories - to conflate all these terms. Many of these people should know better. Then of course the other side deliberately misinterprets political comment as racial prejudice, but the onus really is for people to check their language.

Political discourse regarding Israel, Zionism and anti-Semitism is shrouded in hyperbole. And very often people don't say what they actually mean. Whenever somebody claims that Jews aren't Semites, they are actually attempting to justify opinions they are too cowardly to express directly.

In short, Livingstone appears to have been daft, but it's almost impossible to tell what his motive was. And that in itself is inexcusable.

 

He claims it was an factual answer to a direct question, but I don't know what the question was. Whatever it was, it was a stupid thing to say something that could easily be spun to say something that I hope he didn't mean, that the Zionists shared a philosophy with Hitler.

[Savage Henry]

He claims it was an factual answer to a direct question, but I don't know what the question was. Whatever it was, it was a stupid thing to say something that could easily be spun to say something that I hope he didn't mean, that the Zionists shared a philosophy with Hitler.

Right. As I say, any politician who speaks out on this issue is duty bound to moderate his/her language, because the vocabulary is all politicised. It's a very strange case.

[jmothecat]

"Supporting" doesn't have to mean being a fanboy. In this case it means supporting materially, which he did by facilitating the emigration (escape) of 60,000 German Jews into Palestine before 1939 after negotiating with Zionists to help get the boycott of German exports mitigated. This was a huge gain for the Zionist movement politically, forgetting about the lives saved. I don't think anyone was suggesting Hitler was a Zionist. He got rid of some Jews and gained a propaganda victory and some trade benefits before he started exterminating them in earnest.

Given the context and his refusal to clarify his comments when given multiple opportunities to do so, it seems pretty clear to me that Livingstone was suggesting Hitler was basically a Zionist. He didn't say 'used' he said 'supported', and gave very little explanation as to what this apparent 'support' amounted to. He no more supported Zionism than he did socialism, he just used it as a means to an end. The context matters here, and listening to Livingstone's comments and the timing of them are damning. Apart from anything else why did he even bring Hitler up? Even if he meant it in a historical way, but used clumsy language, why bring it up at all?

This in addition to the fact he believes the forced removal of Israeli Jews to America isn't anti-semitism but 'rudeness'. I'm guessing he felt the same about the BNP's repatriation policy.

[jmothecat]

This is the full context of the Feltz interview with the question mentioning Hitler.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/28/timeline-events-leading-to-ken-livingstone-suspension-labour

[Granny Danger]

I haven't actually hear the quotes in context so it's a bit unfair for me to pass judgement, but I'm mightily surprised if Livingstone has actually said that intentionally. It's a pretty insane claim. I've always seen him as a rational version of George Galloway - who genuinely is anti-Semitic.

There is a propensity for the left - and conspiracy theories - to conflate all these terms. Many of these people should know better. Then of course the other side deliberately misinterprets political comment as racial prejudice, but the onus really is for people to check their language.

Political discourse regarding Israel, Zionism and anti-Semitism is shrouded in hyperbole. And very often people don't say what they actually mean. Whenever somebody claims that Jews aren't Semites, they are actually attempting to justify opinions they are too cowardly to express directly.

In short, Livingstone appears to have been daft, but it's almost impossible to tell what his motive was. And that in itself is inexcusable.

  

What evidence do you offer for your accusation of Galloway being 'genuinely anti-Semitic'. I can't stand the guy but I've not heard him making anti-Semitic comments.

Given the context and his refusal to clarify his comments when given multiple opportunities to do so, it seems pretty clear to me that Livingstone was suggesting Hitler was basically a Zionist. He didn't say 'used' he said 'supported', and gave very little explanation as to what this apparent 'support' amounted to. He no more supported Zionism than he did socialism, he just used it as a means to an end. The context matters here, and listening to Livingstone's comments and the timing of them are damning. Apart from anything else why did he even bring Hitler up? Even if he meant it in a historical way, but used clumsy language, why bring it up at all?

This in addition to the fact he believes the forced removal of Israeli Jews to America isn't anti-semitism but 'rudeness'. I'm guessing he felt the same about the BNP's repatriation policy.

'Forced removal of Israeli Jews to America'? Other than yourself who has used that term?

[Antlion]

The Daily Politics UKIP Appreciation Programme plumbs new depths by spending ten minutes schmoozing Farage and featuring an interview with an Oxford language expert to discuss how we should pronounce his name.

Ffs Auntie Beeb - your wall to wall coverage failed to get him in to the Commons. Turn the page and just have him present Strictly or something.

[THE KING]

This is the full context of the Feltz interview with the question mentioning Hitler.http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/28/timeline-events-leading-to-ken-livingstone-suspension-labour

Thanks I was looking for the original interview.

So it turns out he was asked about Hitler and antisemitism and answered it?!

How he be called a Nazi sympathiser or anti semetic from his reply is a joke.

Edited April 29, 2016 by THE KING

[Fide]

"Ken Livingstone is in a toilet &the British news media are camped outside the door asking if he agrees with Hitler"

 

[Bishop Briggs]

Thanks I was looking for the original interview.

So it turns out he was asked about Hitler and antisemitism and answered it?!

How he be called a Nazi sympathiser or anti semetic from his reply is a joke.

 

Livingston's answer on Hitler was ridiculous. Mein Kampf was published in 1925 and chapter 11 set out Hitler's hatred of the Jews and desire to get rid of them. Yet Livingstone seems to think that Hitler was rational and only went mad in the 1930s. His comments are those that you would expect hear from a BNP or National Front candidate, not a former MP and Mayor of London.

 

Livingstone has past form - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/london-mayor-election/9229285/Ken-Livingstone-fury-at-concentration-camp-guard-jibe-was-a-huge-fuss-over-nothing.html. "Mr Livingstone also defended his behaviour towards the Jewish journalist Oliver Finegold, who he accused of being a “German war criminal†and “concentration camp guard†and to whom he has never apologised." 

 

The rest of the article is interesting - "Mr Livingstone was repeatedly asked by the Hampstead audience about his decision to host and publicly embrace al-Qaradawi, who backs suicide bombing, has called for Jews and homosexuals to be killed and said that “to be absolved from guilt, a raped woman must have shown good conduct.â€

He replied: “We can spend the rest of our lives going on about what happened with Qaradawi or we can look to the future… Why is it such an obsessive point?†

 

Such a nice caring man who believes in equality for all. 

[Ad Lib]

What evidence do you offer for your accusation of Galloway being 'genuinely anti-Semitic'. I can't stand the guy but I've not heard him making anti-Semitic comments.

 

[welshbairn]

 

 

How is that anti semitic? Whacko anti Israeli possibly, 

[Ad Lib]

How is that anti semitic? Whacko anti Israeli possibly, 

 

It's dog-whistle politics at its most pathetic.

[welshbairn]

It's dog-whistle politics at its most pathetic.

 

So accusing the Israeli Government of doing wrong is now code for hating all Jews?

 

P.S. The Israeli State's long standing campaign for labeling all its critics anti semitic and making Zionism sacrosanct is finally paying off.

Edited April 29, 2016 by welshbairn

[Ad Lib]

So accusing the Israeli Government of doing wrong is now code for hating all Jews?

 

No, concocting a fucking absurd non-sequitur of a collusion between Al Qaida and the Israeli State is an established dog-whistle of anti-semitism.

 

Or have you forgotten that time Sandra White retweeted this:

 

[welshbairn]

No, concocting a fucking absurd non-sequitur of a collusion between Al Qaida and the Israeli State is an established dog-whistle of anti-semitism.

 

Or have you forgotten that time Sandra White retweeted this:

 

 

No idea who she is but that's clearly anti semitic. It's also true that Israel encouraged the growth of Hamas as a counterweight to the PLO. Is that an anti semitic statement?

[Ad Lib]

No idea who she is but that's clearly anti semitic. It's also true that Israel encouraged the growth of Hamas as a counterweight to the PLO. Is that an anti semitic statement?

This is risible whataboutery.

Anyone who claims that Israel gave Al Qaida in Syria chemical weapons is an anti-Semitic dog whistler. It's that simple.

[AUFC90]

This is risible whataboutery.

Anyone who claims that Israel gave Al Qaida in Syria chemical weapons is an anti-Semitic dog whistler. It's that simple.

Not its not, you're wrong. Apparently they've been propping up sunni terrorists on the Syrian border by taking them in, providing medical treatment and sending them back over the border. All because Hesbollah are fighting on the other side. Does that make me an anti semite or are you talking utter shite , yet again ? Edited April 29, 2016 by AUFC90

[Ad Lib]

Not its not, you're wrong. Apparently they've been propping up sunni terrorists on the Syrian border by taking them in, providing medical treatment and sending them back over the border. All because Hesbollah are fighting on the other side. Does that make me an anti semite or are you talking utter shite , yet again ?

You are talking utter shite.

That does not support the ridiculous supposition that Israel is giving CHEMICAL WEAPONS to Al Qaida.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Ad Lib