General Politics Thread

[The_Kincardine]

8 minutes ago, Bully Wee Villa said:

I like the new avatar, mate. Love Hitchcock films. 

That leaves me Spellbound.

[welshbairn]

24 minutes ago, Bully Wee Villa said:

I like the new avatar, mate.  

Big improvement on the apartheid memorabilia, to be sure, to be sure. Maybe just a sense of collective responsibility for the worship of King Billy on the flag though.

Edited January 30, 2019 by welshbairn

[Bully Wee Villa]

He's spoiled my joke, now. The little scamp. 

[Detournement]

8 hours ago, The_Kincardine said:

There is (unusually) some truth in what you say, Welshy.  My auld man would have largely agreed with you there.

What, for me, is more worthy of exploration is the tendency of some to try and disassociate themselves from our collective past.  This is writ large in the rewritten narrative of South Ireland which has largely attempted to disassociate itself from what we'd now call (using more modern terminology a la The Lions) The British and Irish Empire.  You also see the same trend amongst the empty headed Yessers.  For some South Irish and for a peculiar group of Scots, 'Empire' is something that happened to them rather than both countries being absolutely up to their oxters in Empire and slavery from providing capital to providing soldiers.

You see the same tendency - a desire to shite the bed when it comes to responsibility - when it comes to The Honourable Member for Dundee.  He may well have been flawed and he may well have made some poor decisions but he was very much a politician made in Scotland.  

So racist?  White supremacist?  War criminal?  Possibly and arguably.  Were he, though, then we're all culpable.  That's how collective responsibility works.

What a load of shite. I can say easily say living Scottish people are racist right wing p***ks so saying it about Churchill is no problem.

There is no collective responsibility across time or class.

[Fullerene]

9 hours ago, welshbairn said:

I think that attitude comes more from the baby boomers than people who actually were in the war. My Dad thought that Dresden and Nagasaki especially rather than Hiroshima were inexcusable. He also thought that the EU was one of the greatest achievements for peace in history. Old people get a bad reputation, but it's their surviving children who are doing the damage, apart from me.

A lot of American generals and admirals condemned the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - after the war.
During the war, they were saying "when will it be ready?"

I suspect towards the end of the war, a lot of people were saying "let's just get this thing finished - whatever the cost".
It was only afterwards that they considered the morality of their actions.

[dirty dingus]

10 hours ago, welshbairn said:

I think that attitude comes more from the baby boomers than people who actually were in the war. My Dad thought that Dresden and Nagasaki especially rather than Hiroshima were inexcusable. He also thought that the EU was one of the greatest achievements for peace in history. Old people get a bad reputation, but it's their surviving children who are doing the damage, apart from me.

I my gran told me to never fight for the Empire/Brits/Thatcher and that my granda would turn in his grave if any of the weans signed up.  One of her sons is a full blown gammon tory jingoistic britnat...think he thought rebelling in the 60's meant age not decade.

[ICTJohnboy]

9 hours ago, The_Kincardine said:

For some South Irish and for a peculiar group of Scots, 

 

Good choice of word.

[Crùbag]

 

[oldbitterandgrumpy]

22 hours ago, The_Kincardine said:

There is (unusually) some truth in what you say, Welshy.  My auld man would have largely agreed with you there.

What, for me, is more worthy of exploration is the tendency of some to try and disassociate themselves from our collective past.  This is writ large in the rewritten narrative of South Ireland which has largely attempted to disassociate itself from what we'd now call (using more modern terminology a la The Lions) The British and Irish Empire.  You also see the same trend amongst the empty headed Yessers.  For some South Irish and for a peculiar group of Scots, 'Empire' is something that happened to them rather than both countries being absolutely up to their oxters in Empire and slavery from providing capital to providing soldiers.

You see the same tendency - a desire to shite the bed when it comes to responsibility - when it comes to The Honourable Member for Dundee.  He may well have been flawed and he may well have made some poor decisions but he was very much a politician made in Scotland.  

So racist?  White supremacist?  War criminal?  Possibly and arguably.  Were he, though, then we're all culpable.  That's how collective responsibility works.

No, actually he was. 

[NotThePars]

None of my family members lived in Scotland while Churchill strut around being a genocidal maniac so the rest of you can take collective responsibility.

[Guest]

On 31/01/2019 at 00:05, oldbitterandgrumpy said:

No, actually he was. 

 

On 31/01/2019 at 01:14, NotThePars said:

None of my family members lived in Scotland while Churchill strut around being a genocidal maniac so the rest of you can take collective responsibility.

The collective responsibility on the Churchill debate is quite an interesting one, I'd actually point out that the ordinary punter has no say and quite often no knowledge of what's actually happening at the time. They don't make decisions, they don't profit from these decisions and they don't know anything other than what's being reported in the press.

We obviously had protests over Blair & the Iraq war, however does that mean we should all be held responsible for the bombing and killing of innocents in Iraq and Afghanistan ?

As we stand right now, our Foreign Secretary is cosying up to the yanks over Venezuela and I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if this leads to a civil war and subsequent military intervention.

Are we doing anything to try and stop this ?

Does that mean we are therefore all responsible if it ends in bloodshed ??

We know it's a proxy war and an important country strategically, but if they didn't have natural resources would anyone be even giving a toss ???

I don't think so, which leads me to the conclusion that our current mob of chancers are every bit as bad, if not worse than Churchill and his Government.

Now, it's over to History...............

[Granny Danger]

Sinn Fein highlighting the shit way  SNP MPs are treated at Westminster.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/treatment-of-scots-mps-affirms-abstentionism-1-4866934?utm_campaign=The Scotsman - Daily RSS&utm_source=hs_email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=69572947&_hsenc=p2ANqtz--mLdJBupsUDYrTBdGj_6KWpkHD-OT2VcdTgD0IckxVeTeGzat5QzWSXg_iRoRhzqmK2PI6jI9dytD_ctJWXZhNAtzDTQ&_hsmi=69572947

[welshbairn]

I hope Sinn Fein and UDP get hammered by the SDLP and UUP respectively at the next election. Both are taking the pish of their electorate, hoping that chaos and misery brings victory, bit like Corbyn and McDonnell. Won't happen but one can dream that the Northern Irish are capable of seeing how they're being shafted.

[Granny Danger]

34 minutes ago, MixuFixit said:

If the SNP went abstentionist they would to an MP be wiped out at the next election. Scotland is not Northern Ireland and while some would like to imagine support for yes vs no parties is akin to nationalists and unionists, it is not.

I’m not arguing for abstentionism simply agreeing that our MPs are treated very badly.  Of course there is a wider issue on the behaviour of MPs in Westminster.

4 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

I hope Sinn Fein and UDP get hammered by the SDLP and UUP respectively at the next election. Both are taking the pish of their electorate, hoping that chaos and misery brings victory, bit like Corbyn and McDonnell. Won't happen but one can dream that the Northern Irish are capable of seeing how they're being shafted.

Pretty sure Sinn Fein voters know and buy into their abstenionism policy.  If Brexit fucks them up they’ve no excuse of course.

 

[Jacksgranda]

35 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

I hope Sinn Fein and UDP get hammered by the SDLP and UUP respectively at the next election. Both are taking the pish of their electorate, hoping that chaos and misery brings victory, bit like Corbyn and McDonnell. Won't happen but one can dream that the Northern Irish are capable of seeing how they're being shafted.

UDP is long gone, m9.

[Jmothecat2]

Nadine Dorries criticised for confusing Ash Sarkar with Faiza Shaheen. Turns out she has previous for this sort of thing.

[Granny Danger]

Tensions building between France and Spain.  The right wing fuckwits in Europe seem intent of stirring the shit.

 

[Detournement]

The FiveStar boy dropping a truth bomb about France's role in Africa did not go down well.

 

[Malcolm Malcolm]

On 30/01/2019 at 01:14, The_Kincardine said:

There is (unusually) some truth in what you say, Welshy.  My auld man would have largely agreed with you there.

What, for me, is more worthy of exploration is the tendency of some to try and disassociate themselves from our collective past.  This is writ large in the rewritten narrative of South Ireland which has largely attempted to disassociate itself from what we'd now call (using more modern terminology a la The Lions) The British and Irish Empire.  You also see the same trend amongst the empty headed Yessers.  For some South Irish and for a peculiar group of Scots, 'Empire' is something that happened to them rather than both countries being absolutely up to their oxters in Empire and slavery from providing capital to providing soldiers.

You see the same tendency - a desire to shite the bed when it comes to responsibility - when it comes to The Honourable Member for Dundee.  He may well have been flawed and he may well have made some poor decisions but he was very much a politician made in Scotland.  

So racist?  White supremacist?  War criminal?  Possibly and arguably.  Were he, though, then we're all culpable.  That's how collective responsibility works.

It is entirely possible for a place or a group of people to participate in Empire (or any other power structure) and also be on the receiving end of it. I don't think that's a particularly innovative or controversial perspective.

[NorthernLights]

Chope up to his old tricks again...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47173445