General Politics Thread

[Jmothecat2]

What a pishy response that would've been.

The day he tries to play the 'mainstream politician' game is the day he's fucked.

And we can replace him with a genuine mainstream politician and things will be good again.

[pandarilla]

Does that make it any better? Leaving the EU likely to be disastrous, particularly for people who Labour supposedly represent. Does having left-wing conspiratorial reasons for supporting Brexit suddenly make it ok?

On the Jewdas issue I had honestly never even heard of them before, a cursory glance makes them not particularly look like extremists, but people who broadly share Corbyn's world view. It would be good to see Corbyn meeting with Jewish groups and people who have views that don't chime with his as well, but I see no reason why he shouldn't meet with this group.

Firstly, being in the eu was hardly beneficial for the so called traditional labour voters. Who knows what will come about in the next few years.

I'd also point out your use of the word conspiratorial in that first paragraph is childish and embarrassing.

Thirdly, Jeremy corbyn did not support brexit. He campaigned for the remain cause in as honest a way as he could (again the idea that he'd have chummed up to bj and nige is deluded).

[Jmothecat2]

Firstly, being in the eu was hardly beneficial for the so called traditional labour voters. Who knows what will come about in the next few years.

I'd also point out your use of the word conspiratorial in that first paragraph is childish and embarrassing.

Thirdly, Jeremy corbyn did not support brexit. He campaigned for the remain cause in as honest a way as he could (again the idea that he'd have chummed up to bj and nige is deluded).

I said conspiratorial as that's what the vast majority of Lexit supporters are. The type of people who think the EU is some sort of neo-liberal superstate created to prevent countries from having radical governments.

[bob the tank]

I suspect that because 75% of the UK press is right-wing, Tory lies are less likely to be exposed than those from other parties.
And because of that, it encourages them to keep on lying.
Ruth Davidson especially has a rather remarkable bubble around her which seems to make her immune to public scrutiny.  She's become the master of making outlandish anti-SNP statements..... I remember her being live on the BBC during the 2015 elections, saying that she had reports of 'SNP supporters intimidating other voters' in someplace like Annan (turned out to be utter bollox)......and then retreating before she can be challenged.
I suspect strongly that this was a deliberate tactic devised by Better Together during the 2014 referendum campaign, and it's one that they've continued with for the last 4 years. Concoct a lie, shout it as loudly as possible, and allow the media to spread it.
Barely anyone will take notice 3 months down the line when the lie is disproved completely.
 
 

The tRuthless Colonel never said SNP supporters, but by implication the "burly men" she mentioned were of course natszis, as her chums in the Davidson Party, the masons and the OO would never intimidate anyone

[NotThePars]

1 hour ago, Jmothecat2 said:

 

I said conspiratorial as that's what the vast majority of Lexit supporters are. The type of people who think the EU is some sort of neo-liberal superstate created to prevent countries from having radical governments.

 

 

It's pretty clear that there is pressure from the EU to conform to a specific economic agenda and in several cases have pushed countries into pursuing deeper austerity agendas. Portugal is a key example of this, and Greece another. Indeed it's arguably because of Brexit that Portugal were able to avoid cutting their state pensions further out of fear within the EU of further breakaway attempts.

[welshbairn]

1 hour ago, pandarilla said:

F

Thirdly, Jeremy corbyn did not support brexit. He campaigned for the remain cause in as honest a way as he could (again the idea that he'd have chummed up to bj and nige is deluded).

By hiding on his allotment?

[pandarilla]

I said conspiratorial as that's what the vast majority of Lexit supporters are. The type of people who think the EU is some sort of neo-liberal superstate created to prevent countries from having radical governments.

Lexit?

Holy f**k.

And if you don't think the eu has a neoliberal agenda then you've not been paying attention. That's not a conspiracy.

[NotThePars]

Lexit?

Holy f**k.

And if you don't think the eu has a neoliberal agenda then you've not been paying attention. That's not a conspiracy.

jmo missed the memo when neoliberals acknowledged it was a thing since nobody bought into their “post-ideology” nonsense and since started defending it.

[Fullerene]

43 minutes ago, ThatBoyRonaldo said:

Opposing the EU from the left is a fair enough opinion to hold, but the folk for whom that was their justification for voting Leave were and are idiots, given that the actually existing movement to leave the EU was never anything other than a radically right-wing campaign.

I totally agree with this.  I believe the term is "useful idiots."

[Baxter Parp]

11 hours ago, NotThePars said:

 

It's pretty clear that there is pressure from the EU to conform to a specific economic agenda and in several cases have pushed countries into pursuing deeper austerity agendas. Portugal is a key example of this, and Greece another. Indeed it's arguably because of Brexit that Portugal were able to avoid cutting their state pensions further out of fear within the EU of further breakaway attempts.

Hardly.  Austerity measures in Portugal are more connected to being in the Eurozone and out of control borrowing rather than the EU.  The austerity measures were imposed by the central bank not the EU.  You can argue that Portugal and Greece should never have been allowed into the Eurozone since they didn't really meet the criteria but that's not an EU membership issue.  It's my opinion that the EU has been very beneficial to the working people of this country and those on the left that oppose it are deluded.

[NotThePars]

I’m sorry I assumed most people would work with the idea that the European central bank and the eurozone were implicitly included in a criticism of the European Union and I can’t be bothered with a dull argument about it all week.

[Baxter Parp]

53 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

I’m sorry I assumed most people would work with the idea that the European central bank and the eurozone were implicitly included in a criticism of the European Union and I can’t be bothered with a dull argument about it all week.

They're not one and the same thing.

[Baxter Parp]

[topcat(The most tip top)]

The referendum was effectively a “keep what you’ve got or take home whatever’s in the mystery box” affair

As long as the box wasn’t open it could contain multiple contradictory things at once it could be a free market socialist utopia where our industry is protected from foreign competition by tariffs but these tariffs don’t affect consumer prices. We would be able to export to everywhere unhindered by the same kind of protectionism from foreigners. There was even an emergence of the phrase “Empire 2.0” an a country with only one aircraft carrier. In short Brexit could be anything you wanted it to be as long as you didn’t open the box

Left wing idealists, like any other idealists are optimistic by definition . This is generally a trait to be praised but optimism is unfortunately one of those good things that you can get too much of. It can lead to you believing 6 impossible things before breakfast and that is where some decent people on the left found themselves.

[pandarilla]

The referendum was effectively a “keep what you’ve got or take home whatever’s in the mystery box” affair

As long as the box wasn’t open it could contain multiple contradictory things at once it could be a free market socialist utopia where our industry is protected from foreign competition by tariffs but these tariffs don’t affect consumer prices. We would be able to export to everywhere unhindered by the same kind of protectionism from foreigners. There was even an emergence of the phrase “Empire 2.0” an a country with only one aircraft carrier. In short Brexit could be anything you wanted it to be as long as you didn’t open the box

Left wing idealists, like any other idealists are optimistic by definition . This is generally a trait to be praised but optimism is unfortunately one of those good things that you can get too much of. It can lead to you believing 6 impossible things before breakfast and that is where some decent people on the left found themselves.

The mystery box hasn't been opened yet though.

I didn't vote for brexit but I'm sure as hell not going to believe that the outcome is going to be automatically gloomy.

History is littered with unintended consequences, and economists often fall flat on their face when predicting how things will turn out.

Things can change very quickly. The eu itself isn't entirely secure. There is still the chance (however unlikely) that it could fold.

[NotThePars]

The referendum was effectively a “keep what you’ve got or take home whatever’s in the mystery box” affair

As long as the box wasn’t open it could contain multiple contradictory things at once it could be a free market socialist utopia where our industry is protected from foreign competition by tariffs but these tariffs don’t affect consumer prices. We would be able to export to everywhere unhindered by the same kind of protectionism from foreigners. There was even an emergence of the phrase “Empire 2.0” an a country with only one aircraft carrier. In short Brexit could be anything you wanted it to be as long as you didn’t open the box

Left wing idealists, like any other idealists are optimistic by definition . This is generally a trait to be praised but optimism is unfortunately one of those good things that you can get too much of. It can lead to you believing 6 impossible things before breakfast and that is where some decent people on the left found themselves.

The Lexit vote before the election was minuscule and many of its recent converts are partially pragmatic by accepting the referendum result and subsequent uselessness of the ardent Remainers. At the same time it’s a wildly optimistic risk to take that they’ll succeed and I don’t know if the risk is worth the potential rewards. I’d rather see a reformed EU than dive out of it personally.

[pandarilla]

Hardly.  Austerity measures in Portugal are more connected to being in the Eurozone and out of control borrowing rather than the EU.  The austerity measures were imposed by the central bank not the EU.  You can argue that Portugal and Greece should never have been allowed into the Eurozone since they didn't really meet the criteria but that's not an EU membership issue.  It's my opinion that the EU has been very beneficial to the working people of this country and those on the left that oppose it are deluded.

"The eu has been very beneficial to working people."

That's a very interesting debate. Compared to austerity Britain with the Tory party in power it's no contest - but is the neoliberal model of globalisation the only option available?

I've got neither the time (nor the intelligence) to take on this argument but as I said, I'm not giving up hope on a brighter long term future for society.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

25 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

The mystery box hasn't been opened yet though.
 

But it is definitely started to smell like it's full of shite

My point was more that when it was merely theoretical it could be all things to all people. 

"Gloomy" is after all subjective

Edited April 4, 2018 by topcat(The most tip top)

[yoda]

39 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

"The eu has been very beneficial to working people."

That's a very interesting debate. Compared to austerity Britain with the Tory party in power it's no contest - but is the neoliberal model of globalisation the only option available?

I've got neither the time (nor the intelligence) to take on this argument but as I said, I'm not giving up hope on a brighter long term future for society.

Dani Rodrik offers some interesting takes on globalisation (I don't know if I agree with everything he says). Worth checking out some of his things, like this interview: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/08/10/the-rise-of-populism-shouldnt-have-surprised-anyone/?utm_term=.e8635afc8590

[vikingTON]

18 hours ago, pandarilla said:

Firstly, being in the eu was hardly beneficial for the so called traditional labour voters. 

Bollocks. Regional development funds from the EU play a massive role in attempts to regenerate the utter shitholes in which many 'traditional Labour voters' live - case in point: Wales. A fact that they're going to learn the hard way once said funds are diverted to projects in eastern Europe instead as a result of gormless idiots voting against their best interests,