General Politics Thread

[AUFC90]

Barraso wouldnt even be in the room [emoji23]

You are ignoring the SNP's refusal to accept the EU Commission's "Barroso doctrine" .  The Commissioners said publicly and wrote letters that confirmed had Scotland voted Yes in the referendum, it would have left the EU when it left the UK. 
Another key difference is that the SNP has now ditched that the "Sterlingisation" currency policy that was initially proposed by the Neo-liberal Adam Smith Institute. 
We can only hope that lessons have been learned for the IndyRef2 White Paper. Any application for EU (or even EFTA) membership will dependent on the divorce deal with rUK. That will be more complex, lengthy and costly than Brexit. There should be commitments to hold referenda on the UK divorce deal and re-joining the EU.
Better Together could not guarantee that the UK would vote to Remain. Anyone who believed that would have to be incredibly stupid. Similarly, there were lots of the claims in the White Paper that were incredibly stupid. The people have to ignore the idiotic propaganda that dominates elections/referendums and make their own judgement. 

[AUFC90]

Mind during the last referendum the Tories were so desperate that skint Scotland wouldn't leave that they actually said they couldn't win the next election ? Good times.

Won't wash the next time and that's why every hard no has been shitting it about another for one for years. That's you. Unlucky.

Not revisionist at all. Only totalitarian regimes (Communist or Fascist) can guarantee the outcomes of elections and referendums. It's amazing how many politicians (including the EU) find it hard to accept the democratic choices of the electorates. The losers, especially here, often claim that the victors cheated the voters. 
At the time, even the Tories were confident that Remain would win. Conservatives.In (run Cameron's team) recruited over two thirds of Tory Parliamentarians - including over 90% of Ministers in Cameron's government. Cameron was complacent and events proved him and the major parties (who all backed Remain) wrong. 

[AUFC90]

No I didn't.
I'm a strong proponent of both the EU and the Union and my argument against both Brexit and independence is that they are dominated by a matched pair of xenophobic, wall-building arsecheeks.

^^^^ Jakey wall-guarder in criticising wall-builder shocker.

[Bishop Briggs]

1 hour ago, AUFC90 said:

Barraso wouldnt even be in the room

What room? Barroso retired in 2014 anyway. Under Jean-Claude Juncker, the Commission confirmed the Barroso policy. The Scottish government and the SNP continued to ignore it! 

An independent Scotland would have to negotiate its own trade and other deals with the EU. They would need to be in place whilst Scotland's application was being processed. Has the SNP set out any firm proposals for Indyref2? 

[Bishop Briggs]

1 hour ago, AUFC90 said:

Mind during the last referendum the Tories were so desperate that skint Scotland wouldn't leave that they actually said they couldn't win the next election ? Good times.

Won't wash the next time and that's why every hard no has been shitting it about another for one for years. That's you. Unlucky.

I couldn't give as toss about the Tories as I don't vote for them. I'm not shitting Indyref2 either. Bring it on asap, next year at the latest!

I support real independence not EU subservience. The elected Scottish Parliament alone, not the unelected EU Commission, should determine our laws.

Polling shows that around a third of Indy Ref Yes voters also voted to Leave the EU. They've got no party that represents their views and the SNP would be crazy to ignore them.

 

[Bishop Briggs]

Just now, MixuFruit said:

Leaving aside the idea it's going to come down to rules and not wider political imperatives, what are you implying? That Scotland shouldn't try?

I'm saying that Scotland should focus on gaining real independence and not apply to re-join the EU. 

[Antlion]

So just to be clear, to the BritNat mind, the EU is an evil, lying, corrupt organisation which is trying to swallow up European nations, and that routinely lies and should not be believed, but if the question of Scottish independence comes up, the EU is an efficient and coherent organisation that is telling the truth, must be believed, and does not want nations to join to the extent it will try and prevent them.

[Bishop Briggs]

Just now, MixuFruit said:

Why?

Because I believe in self-government and self-determination for Scotland.

[Bishop Briggs]

1 minute ago, Antlion said:

So just to be clear, to the BritNat mind, the EU is an evil, lying, corrupt organisation which is trying to swallow up European nations, and that routinely lies and should not be believed, but if the question of Scottish independence comes up, the EU is an efficient and coherent organisation that is telling the truth, must be believed, and does not want nations to join to the extent it will try and prevent them.

That's one hell of a sentence! 

Real independence and self-government is incompatible with membership of another political union, British or European.

A third of IndRef Yes voters also voted to leave the EU. Why do you smear them as BritNats? Is your real loyalty to the EU rather than Scotland?

[Bishop Briggs]

1 minute ago, MixuFruit said:

& How has the EU stopped that for the UK?

Or rather how would you anticipate it affecting Scotland?

The Single Market regulates our industry, finance and commerce. The Customs Union determines our trading agreements with other countries, i.e. it imposes tariffs on imports from other countries that raise prices. The Common Fisheries Policy smashed fish stocks and decimated our fishing fleets. 

[SandyCromarty]

We will achieve Independence but with it will come a severe backlash trading wise from england as the southern half will immaturely view our independence as traitorous, so with that it will be absolutely essential that we garner and achieve some sort of alliance if not full membership with the EU, bear in mind that countries such as France have viewed Brexit with some animosity and would welcome opening trade with englands neighbours, just as they did during the now defunct Auld Alliance, knowing the French nothing would give them greater pleasure than fuckin with the 'Roast Biff'. 

[Antlion]

58 minutes ago, Bishop Briggs said:

That's one hell of a sentence! 

Real independence and self-government is incompatible with membership of another political union, British or European.

A third of IndRef Yes voters also voted to leave the EU. Why do you smear them as BritNats? Is your real loyalty to the EU rather than Scotland?

I guess I’m a little less loyal to the EU than you are to the UK, in that I’d be happy for the people of Scotland to decide on EU membership. You seem to want the decision to be made by England and Wales, because apparently sovereignty isn’t that important to you.

[Bishop Briggs]

1 hour ago, Antlion said:

I guess I’m a little less loyal to the EU than you are to the UK, in that I’d be happy for the people of Scotland to decide on EU membership. You seem to want the decision to be made by England and Wales, because apparently sovereignty isn’t that important to you.

Nonsense! I want the people an independent Scotland to vote on EU membership in a referendum.  If Yes had won IndyRef in 2014, the provisions of the Lisbon Treaty would have led to Scotland leaving the EU in 2016.  

Put simply, a Yes vote would have resulted in Scotexit, a decision made by Scotland, not England and Wales. Scotland would have exercised its sovereign rot to leave the UK and UK at the same time, i.e. re-gaining its real independence.

Your real agenda is that EU law should continue to have supremacy over Scotland's laws. Scottish national sovereignty is not important to you. Your real loyalty is to the EU and it's supranational imperialist empire.

[Antlion]

6 minutes ago, Bishop Briggs said:

Nonsense! I want the people an independent Scotland to vote on EU membership in a referendum.  If Yes had won IndyRef in 2014, the provisions of the Lisbon Treaty would have led to Scotland leaving the EU in 2016.  

Put simply, a Yes vote would have resulted in Scotexit, a decision made by Scotland, not England and Wales. Scotland would have exercised its sovereign rot to leave the UK and UK at the same time, i.e. re-gaining its real independence.

Your real agenda is that EU law should continue to have supremacy over Scotland's laws. Scottish national sovereignty is not important to you. Your real loyalty is to the EU and it's supranational imperialist empire.

The problem there is that you don’t want an independent Scotland at all. You want an independent, far-right UK to continue running Scotland into the ground.

I’d take this crying about the EU and sovereignty more seriously from someone who doesn’t actively oppose Scottish sovereignty and is perfectly happy for UK law to continue to have supremacy over Scotland. Your real loyalty is to the UK and its dead empire. 

Edited July 3, 2020 by Antlion

[Antlion]

1 minute ago, MixuFruit said:

Forgive me if I misinterpreted but is he not a pro independence brexiteer?

He’s a Brexiteer, certainly. I’ve never seen anything to seriously suggest he’s pro-Scottish independence (or indeed anything but a hardcore Brexiteer). 
 

(The “I also want Scotland to leave the UK” seems to be a fairly recent afterthought.)

Edited July 3, 2020 by Antlion

[Bishop Briggs]

2 minutes ago, MixuFruit said:

Hyperbolic pish.

For most people the EU is a community of countries whose people are friendly and means of collaboration on writing and voting on EU law to introduce common (high) standards sets the EU apart from much of the rest of the world.

Is it perfect? No. Is it an empire? Haha no.

That's not what the European Parliament's Brexit negotiator says.

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/b/verhofstadt-eu-empire-is-only-way-to-defend-britain

EU BREXIT spokesman Guy Verhofstadt has said that a European empire is the only way to defend Britain’s “way of life” in the 21st century.

Speaking at the Liberal Democrat conference, the flamboyant euro-federalist said: “The world of tomorrow is a world of empires, in which we Europeans and you British can only defend your interests, your way of life by doing it together in a European framework and a European Union.”

He went on: “The world order of tomorrow is not a world order based on nation states or countries, it’s a world order that is based on empires. China is not a nation, it’s a civilisation."

[Bishop Briggs]

3 minutes ago, Antlion said:

The problem there is that you don’t want an independent Scotland at all. You want an independent, far-right UK to continue running Scotland into the ground.

I’d take this crying about the EU and sovereignty more seriously from someone who doesn’t actively oppose Scottish sovereignty and is perfectly happy for UK law to continue to have supremacy over Scotland. Your real loyalty is to the UK and its dead empire. 

Nonsense. You are rattled and just trying to smear anyone who does not agree with your aggressive Europhile agenda. .

Please give  clear and concrete examples of me expounding or promoting far-right views or policies. Put up or shut up!

 

[Antlion]

6 minutes ago, Bishop Briggs said:

Nonsense. You are rattled and just trying to smear anyone who does not agree with your aggressive Europhile agenda. .

Please give  clear and concrete examples of me expounding or promoting far-right views or policies. Put up or shut up!

 

I’m sorry, I thought lazy smearing was the order of the day.

“Your real agenda is that EU law should continue to have supremacy over Scotland's laws. Scottish national sovereignty is not important to you. Your real loyalty is to the EU and it's supranational imperialist empire.”

Don’t dish out hyperbolic, hysterical shite if you’re going to melt at being repaid in your own coin.

 

 

Edited July 3, 2020 by Antlion

[Bishop Briggs]

2 minutes ago, MixuFruit said:

He's saying defend yourself from bullying superpowers by being part of a larger bloc. Beginning to spot a trend in taking things at face value with you.

Have you read Verhofstadt's books? His agenda is to build an EU empire - https://www.goodreads.com/author/list/163208.Guy_Verhofstadt. Examples - A New Age of Empires and A United States of Europe.  Until last year, Verhofstadt was the Leader of the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe in the European Parliament. 

[Antlion]

Just now, Bishop Briggs said:

Have you read Verhofstadt's books? His agenda is to build an EU empire - https://www.goodreads.com/author/list/163208.Guy_Verhofstadt. Examples - A New Age of Empires and A United States of Europe.  Until last year, Verhofstadt was the Leader of the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe in the European Parliament. 

Oh no! They’re thinking about maybe trying to do something (which the UK has already done) that member states would have to agree with.