General Politics Thread

[Tutankhamen]

With the exception of the Morning Star Uncle Joe fan club and the Claire ooh ah up the Ra Fox RCP types, the Left handed over the Brexit gig to the far Right in and out the Tory Party.

[Bishop Briggs]

1 minute ago, MixuFruit said:

Yeah great but that group is a small one and surprise surprise the EPP doesn't like this idea. Probably Verhofstadt's more colourful pronouncements go some way to explain why right blocs have been rising. That's the good thing about big organisations like this, they're self correcting. I also notice while you mentioned Barroso's hostility to Scottish independence you haven't mentioned Verhofstadt's friendliness to it. See politics innit.

 

Barroso, as EU Commission President, confirmed the legal position under the provisions of the Lisbon Treaty. He, unlike Verhofstadt, had real power and could have done much more to undermine the Yes campaign.

Guy Verhofstadt has always been hostile to the UK politically, especially in relation to its contribution rebate and Euro op-out. He sees support for Scottish independence as a way of undermining the UK and Brexit. 

If you really want to see how the EU fights secession from Member States, take a look at its brutal stance over Catalonian independence. There was full support for the Spanish government and its imprisonment of pro-independence politicians. Catalonia, like Scotland, was told that it would thrown out of the  EU if it declared independence.

The EU doesn't really care about independence. It's only interested in increasing its power and money. Trust it at your peril.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

imperialist empire.

I can’t be the only one that giggled

[Bishop Briggs]

33 minutes ago, MixuFruit said:

So if Verhofstadt has no real power why bring up his ambitions for a united states of Europe?

Catalonia was a secession from an existing EU state so was a threat. Scotland will not be in those circumstances. That isn't a defense of how they behaved with Catalonia just a demonstration of why they make different noises about these things depending the circumstances.

I've been a European citizen my whole life and the good absolutely outweighs the bad.

 

Verhofstadt finally got power when he was appointed Brexit negotiator by the European Parliament. The EU could yet see an independent Scotland as a threat as it would create a precedent for secession. The interests of a unified Spain will trump those of an independent Scotland. Money rules!

I was a very enthusiastic supporter of the EU until the mid-90s. I then became concerned about increase in EU power in the Amsterdam and Nice treaties. Those treaties greatly increased of the EU Commission (rather than the European Parliament) at the expense of National Parliaments.

The EU then refused to accept the No victories in the Dutch, French (2005) and  Irish (2008)  referendums on the EU constitution and Lisbon Treaty respectively. That cynical contempt for democracy and the will of the people  was the final straw for me. Since then, the austerity imposed on the Greece and other countries in the Eurozone has only increased my opposition.

[Guest Bob Mahelp]

22 minutes ago, Bishop Briggs said:

Verhofstadt finally got power when he was appointed Brexit negotiator by the European Parliament. The EU could yet see an independent Scotland as a threat as it would create a precedent for secession. The interests of a unified Spain will trump those of an independent Scotland. Money rules!

I was a very enthusiastic supporter of the EU until the mid-90s. I then became concerned about increase in EU power in the Amsterdam and Nice treaties. Those treaties greatly increased of the EU Commission (rather than the European Parliament) at the expense of National Parliaments.

The EU then refused to accept the No victories in the Dutch, French (2005) and  Irish (2008)  referendums on the EU constitution and Lisbon Treaty respectively. That cynical contempt for democracy and the will of the people  was the final straw for me. Since then, the austerity imposed on the Greece and other countries in the Eurozone has only increased my opposition.

I have to pick you up on this. 

The EU did not 'impose austerity on Greece'. Greece was a fuckin economic basket case for hundreds of years, a country where paying or collecting tax was optional until fairly recently, and a country that in the good old days got out of the shit it was constantly in by removing (or adding) a few zeros on the end of the Drachma. 

The mistake was allowing a country with such a medieval financial system to join the Euro. However, that was Greece's choice, and once they made that choice it was only a matter of time until their own financial mismanagement caught up with them. 

By the way, over the last 10 years, one of the countries with the most 'austerity imposed on it', has been the UK. 

[Antlion]

Remember folks, the EU is an evil organisation - and be warned: an independent Scotland will not be able to join this evil entity. And that’s ... bad?

[NotThePars]

3 hours ago, Tutankhamen said:

With the exception of the Morning Star Uncle Joe fan club and the Claire ooh ah up the Ra Fox RCP types, the Left handed over the Brexit gig to the far Right in and out the Tory Party.

Yep. The response from the left was atrocious just constantly on the backfoot. There's still infighting going on in Momentum between Lexiters and Another Europe is Possible folk and that's before you drift towards the centre and encounter the fundamentalist FBPErs.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Have you read Verhofstadt's books? His agenda is to build an EU empire - https://www.goodreads.com/author/list/163208.Guy_Verhofstadt. Examples - A New Age of Empires and A United States of Europe.  Until last year, Verhofstadt was the Leader of the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe in the European Parliament. 

As a federalist I've no problem with a United States of Europe - I don't buy the xenophobic pish and lies that have been propogated by our right wing media for the past 40 plus years.

The irony is that many of the liars seem to make accusations of centralising of power - yet seem quite happy with a UK government that centralises power far more than it needs to.

I'm not saying that the EU is perfect, far from it, but believe that the pros far out way the cons.

You clearly disagree, that is your choice, but don't use your own prejudices to explain what would happen in terms of EU membership if there were a Yes. The reality is (and we have seen it in the past) that the EU shifts the goalposts on membership - usually driven by realpolitik.

Why do you think that many ex-Soviet Bloc countries gained relatively quick access yet Turkey has not, despite being at the front of the queue for years?

I'm not saying Scotland would be fast-tracked - I'm saying that we really don't know what will happen until a Yes vote in a referendum. One thing is certain - the issue of EU membership will not be used by a Better Together campaign next time around.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

I have to pick you up on this. 

The EU did not 'impose austerity on Greece'. Greece was a fuckin economic basket case for hundreds of years, a country where paying or collecting tax was optional until fairly recently, and a country that in the good old days got out of the shit it was constantly in by removing (or adding) a few zeros on the end of the Drachma. 

The mistake was allowing a country with such a medieval financial system to join the Euro. However, that was Greece's choice, and once they made that choice it was only a matter of time until their own financial mismanagement caught up with them. 

By the way, over the last 10 years, one of the countries with the most 'austerity imposed on it', has been the UK. 

The swimming pool tax evasion was one thing I remember - in one area of Athens there were 20,000 pools and less than 100 paid the tax.

 

[MONKMAN]

The Greek public sector pension scandal fucked them over big time. Bus drivers retiring at 55 on €35k a year pensions clearly wasn’t sustainable. Up to date, their pensions have been cut 14 times with almost a 50% reduction, in the last decade.

[Guest Bob Mahelp]

58 minutes ago, MixuFruit said:

I think reckless lending from the eurozone core to the periphery was more important than any spendthrift nature of Greeks tbh.

 

32 minutes ago, ThatBoyRonaldo said:

Yeah is the key issue not that monetary union without fiscal union meant Greece could neither devalue their currency nor get transfers from the wealthier parts of the eurozone as would have normally happened in a country experiencing their debt crisis. I won't claim to fully understand it but I don't think Greek bus drivers are at fault here. 

You're both correct, but Greece was always a financial basketcase and should never have been allowed to be part of the Eurozone/ERM. 

To blame the EU for imposing austerity...as Bishop Briggs did....is to ignore generations of literally criminal financial mismanagement on behalf of the Greeks themselves.

[Thistle_do_nicely]

1 hour ago, MixuFruit said:

I think reckless lending from the eurozone core to the periphery was more important than any spendthrift nature of Greeks tbh.

it may well have been you that originally got me on to his videos (certain I first saw it linked on P&B anyway) but top boi Yannis Varoufakis has covered this really well, yeah.

From about 13:00 minutes onward. Gist is that Greece had low incomes + low debt levels + high levels of home ownership = "oh hey guys you want a nice shiny Volkswagen on finance :D"

edit: the whole video is great too tbf, earlier on he touches on that if Germany is permanently in a surplus then there's got to be a deficit somewhere else, which countries like Greece end up having to eat shit over

It's still a bit early for me as lockdown has fucked my sleeping patterns to a large extent, but if I had to fling out a hot take it'd be along the lines of EU = fine, since there's mechanisms there at least to play with that can result in genuinely progressive policy but Euro currency = big no-no unless you are Germany or *maybe* one of the other big boys, being in the Euro fucks you over since you've got extremely limited options to print money and a Central Bank that doesn't act as lender of last resort; it's easy to end up in a permanent deficit

Edited July 4, 2020 by Thistle_do_nicely

[strichener]

1 hour ago, Bob Mahelp said:

 

You're both correct, but Greece was always a financial basketcase and should never have been allowed to be part of the Eurozone/ERM. 

To blame the EU for imposing austerity...as Bishop Briggs did....is to ignore generations of literally criminal financial mismanagement on behalf of the Greeks themselves.

Who allowed it into the Eurozone?  The EU is 100% to blame for Greece's troubles.  Without the Eurozone, the economy would have had to adjust in the same way as Iceland.  The EU could not allow that as Greece would have had to leave the Eurozone and then Italy would have followed.  Dominoes.

[Antlion]

I’d be quite happy to change my mind on the EU and consider an independent Scotland in EFTA. However, the crackpot claims of Brexiters (and I include independence-supporting Europhobes) about evil empires, and the hackneyed idea that Ireland’s government was forced at gunpoint by the EU to hold a second referendum because it didn’t like the answer to the first, actually drive me more towards EU support. If there are good anti-EU arguments, it’s telling that Brexiters don’t bother with them and instead prefer to spread their cheeks and shart in the general direction of the wall, hoping some sticks.

[Whitburn Vale]

I am pro EU and a massive nationalist but some of what BB is saying is true....

The EU were'nt exactly welcoming about us getting independence during the 14 indy ref because they were too feart tae upset englandshire,  it's been mixed messages from them ever since....

Nowadays they're not too bothered about stepping on England's toes now that Brexit isnt far away,but its the likes of Catalonia,The Basque country splitting spain up a bit and Flanders leaving and splitting Belgium in two that now worries them.

Hopefully we can gain our independence and then have a decent and meaningful discussion(possibly a referendum)about what type of relationship we want to have with our European friends and of course with England and Wales. 

Edited July 4, 2020 by Whitburn Vale

[Baxter Parp]

4 hours ago, strichener said:

Who allowed it into the Eurozone?  The EU is 100% to blame for Greece's troubles.  Without the Eurozone, the economy would have had to adjust in the same way as Iceland.  The EU could not allow that as Greece would have had to leave the Eurozone and then Italy would have followed.  Dominoes.

Who forced Greece to join the Eurozone, borrow way above their economic capability, neglect to collect their taxes and provide the most generous pensions in the EU? Was it the EU? Was it f**k.

Edited July 4, 2020 by Baxter Parp

[Baxter Parp]

3 hours ago, Whitburn Vale said:

I am pro EU and a massive nationalist but some of what BB is saying is true....

The EU were'nt exactly welcoming about us getting independence during the 14 indy ref because they were too feart tae upset englandshire, 

The EU has a policy of not interfering in the internal issues of its members.  

[Whitburn Vale]

3 hours ago, Baxter Parp said:

The EU has a policy of not interfering in the internal issues of its members.  

Yeah saw that with Catalonia when innocent civilians were getting battered senseless by Spain's Gaurda Civil for trying to vote........

[Baxter Parp]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jul/04/police-smash-car-window-ryan-colaco-tv-interview-racism

Police smash car window of man on way home from C4 interview about police racism

[strichener]

5 hours ago, Baxter Parp said:

Who forced Greece to join the Eurozone, borrow way above their economic capability, neglect to collect their taxes and provide the most generous pensions in the EU? Was it the EU? Was it f**k.

The Eurozone had entry criteria, did Greece meet it?  Who audited them?  

It was the responsibility of the EU to ensure that members were fit to join the Eurozone not the responsibility of the applicants.

You are just arguing black is white for the sake of it.  There is no doubt the Greek economy was unsustainable the failure was the EU choosing to ignore what was in front of them as the "project" is the most important thing.  Nations be damned.