General Politics Thread

[Baxter Parp]

1 minute ago, SweeperDee said:

I never said we weren’t ahead. But our rate of improvement overall isn’t comparable to theirs.

 

"Of course the fact we are lagging behind rUK (especially Wales, but they’ve improved massively since their poor results a few years ago, even compared to England) isn’t great."

Bit confusing sentence then.

[SweeperDee]

"Of course the fact we are lagging behind rUK (especially Wales, but they’ve improved massively since their poor results a few years ago, even compared to England) isn’t great."
Bit confusing sentence then.

Besides the reading measure, our PISA scores on the other categories are on a downward trend, compared to Wales.

Surely we should be angling for the same trend of improvement as Wales in maths and science? Like I said, I can’t think of a reason why we’re seeing a downward trend in scores for those subjects.

I’m not being facetious by the way.

[Baxter Parp]

5 minutes ago, SweeperDee said:

 

Besides the reading measure, our PISA scores on the other categories are on a downward trend, compared to Wales.

Surely we should be angling for the same trend of improvement as Wales in maths and science? Like I said, I can’t think of a reason why we’re seeing a downward trend in scores for those subjects.

I’m not being facetious by the way.

 

No, I agree, it's disappointing and not good enough.

[John Lambies Doos]

ROI seems to be doing very well, we should copy them.

Don't be daft, we're too wee to do that

[SweeperDee]

I’d say the fact that reading scores have improved significantly would suggest problem solving and critical thinking aren’t on the decline. The essay subjects and softer sciences encourage those skills more so than mathematics and hard science (I understand a few might disagree with this), so I wouldn’t agree with you there, Oaksoft.

 

More simply, you can learn by rote better in maths than you can for modern studies, for example.

 

 

[Jeff Venom]

It is the teaching of these subjects which is the issue and I've been saying this for years.
When kids arrive at university, they struggle with problem solving and that is squarely at the feet of teaching in high schools. Part of it falls back on a lack of ability of kids to handle basic algebra and fractions. That spills back into primary schools where teachers there don't need to have a solid grasp on these areas to be teaching it.
Remember the embarassing wailing about how "hard" the crocodile question was in the maths higher exam in 2015 (I think). Universities expect kids to be able to solve that type of problem already. Kids from other countries above us in PISA tables would know how to deal with simple problem solving like that.
We are too obsessed with sitting and passing exams in this country and we are too obsessed with teaching to the test. Until that attitude changes we'll see no meaningful improvement.

I agree with this and it's the same in England.
Tests and exams left right and centre. Assessment for learning every single lesson, left right and centre. Why? Because league tables, school funding, and ofsted.

There's a distrust of the primary schools who feed into the secondaries, so more testing happens in year 7, because data.

Not a single main stream politician ever talks about education being a political football for all of modern history. In the UK, given the philosophies on education by the two main parties, I don't see how this will ever change without de-politicisation of education.

There has, in Maths, been a recent drive towards problem solving and contextual questions, which is a good thing as it requires more relational rather than instrumental understanding.

The problem (as always) was the execution; I had a few technically excellent pupils who were not natively English and/or had additional learning needs, and couldn't access the word-heavy new exam questions - a few months was not enough for them to adjust to this binary change following years of conditioning.

[The_Kincardine]

14 minutes ago, Jeff Venom said:

 In the UK, given the philosophies on education by the two main parties, I don't see how this will ever change without de-politicisation of education.
 

You simply can't depoliticise education.  Scotland has tried to and has a 'one size fits all' policy of mediocrity.  This is true too of lots of parts of England.

Some decent English counties, such as Bucks and others, have tried to do the right thing and maintain top-notch selective schools for brainy pupils and this is an admirable approach.  Where it falls down is that, largely, the non Grammar schools follow the same curriculum.

The sensible person would tier education for those who are academic and have schools for them and then have a more artisan stream for the rest with a more practical curriculum.  This, though, is as politicised as anything.

[John Lambies Doos]

I for one am very surprised at the statistics which prove Welsh people are thick as pig shite.

[Jeff Venom]

You simply can't depoliticise education.  Scotland has tried to and has a 'one size fits all' policy of mediocrity.  This is true too of lots of parts of England.
Some decent English counties, such as Bucks and others, have tried to do the right thing and maintain top-notch selective schools for brainy pupils and this is an admirable approach.  Where it falls down is that, largely, the non Grammar schools follow the same curriculum.
The sensible person would tier education for those who are academic and have schools for them and then have a more artisan stream for the rest with a more practical curriculum.  This, though, is as politicised as anything.

"The sensible person" [emoji23]
Shocked, frankly, to read a Tory basically cheerleading the elitist tripartite system that got rightly binned about 40 years ago.

[The_Kincardine]

18 minutes ago, Jeff Venom said:

"The sensible person"
Shocked, frankly, to read a Tory basically cheerleading the elitist tripartite system that got rightly binned about 40 years ago.

What the hell is elitist about having some schools based on academic aptitude and others based on practical skills?

You (irrationally) vaunt the depoliticisation of education but eschew one education model based on it being 'elitist'.  I assume you're a teacher.  I suggest you don't go to school tomorrow as you're clearly incapable of joined-up thinking.

Edited December 4, 2019 by The_Kincardine

[Jeff Venom]

What the hell is elitist about having some schools based on academic aptitude and others based on practical skills?

You (irrationally) vaunt the depoliticisation of education but eschew one education model based on it being 'elitist'.  I assume you're a teacher.  I suggest you don't go to school tomorrow as you're clearly incapable of joined-up thinking.

Middle and upper class kids inevitably find their way into these schools. If not by post code, then certainly by affording tutors.

Your tripartite system was a construct to keep middle and upper classes apart from those below.

Curious to know what practical skills you'd teach 11 and 12 year olds. Given that's the age the paths are chosen.

 

And I was a teacher. You'd know that if you were able to read properly.

[The_Kincardine]

3 minutes ago, Jeff Venom said:

I was a teacher. 

Thank f**k for that.

[Jeff Venom]

[emoji23] Unsurprisingly you've nothing constructive to say about actual teaching or forms of learning. Just the usual stiffy for everything 1960s Britain.

Thank f**k for that.

[The_Kincardine]

3 minutes ago, Jeff Venom said:

Unsurprisingly you've nothing constructive to say about actual teaching or forms of learning. Just the usual stiffy for everything 1960s Britain.

I said it pretty clearly.  Have elitist schools for the academic and practical schools that feed in to industry.  How sensible is this?  

[Jeff Venom]

I said it pretty clearly.  Have elitist schools for the academic and practical schools that feed in to industry.  How sensible is this?  

Ah right so now those chosen academics, at an arbitrarily young age, are not going into industry because they didn't get taught practical skills while child?
You're at it.

[The_Kincardine]

1 minute ago, Jeff Venom said:

Ah right so now those chosen academics, at an arbitrarily young age, are not going into industry because they didn't get taught practical skills while child?
You're at it.

Not necessarily.  We all know that kids have different abilities and capabilities.  I think education should reflect this.  Don't  you?

[Baxter Parp]

I said it pretty clearly.  Have elitist schools for the academic and practical schools that feed in to industry.  How sensible is this?  

It was discovered that this sort of system is deeply flawed and simply stigmatised and discriminated against the "practical" children about 50 years ago, grandad.

[The_Kincardine]

2 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said:

39 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

I said it pretty clearly.  Have elitist schools for the academic and practical schools that feed in to industry.  How sensible is this?  

It was discovered that this sort of system is deeply flawed and simply stigmatised and discriminated against the "practical" children about 50 years ago, grandad.

Given that it's still extant I don't think it was.  Not that we want to politicise education @Jeff Venom

[Baxter Parp]

Given that it's still extant I don't think it was.  Not that we want to politicise education [mention=1103]Jeff Venom[/mention]

Please do name these elite state schools.

[The_Kincardine]

1 minute ago, Baxter Parp said:

26 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

Given that it's still extant I don't think it was.  Not that we want to politicise education [mention=1103]Jeff Venom[/mention]

Please do name these elite state schools.

No need.  England has 160+ selective grammars that cream off the best of Year 6 and prepare them for academic excellence.  Only two flaws:  1. There aren't enough of them and 2.. The lower schools still teach, broadly, the same curriculum, which is a missed opportunity.