welshbairn Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, ICTJohnboy said: I've driven all round Ireland without any major problems. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted June 17, 2019 Author Share Posted June 17, 2019 Garlic > Gaelic 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beefybake Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Detournement said: The promotion of gaelic is part of a pattern of myth building. There are clearly areas of Scottish history which are promoted more than others. Wallace, the Bruce, Mary Stewart, Bonnie Prince Charlie are all things children learn about at primary school. The modern impression of the Jacobites as fighting for independence is completely ahistorical. I'd argue that the effects of the Norman Conquest in Scotland and the Reformation are obscured as they don't fit neatly into a national mythos and highlight domestic conflicts. Must say, I was really disappointed years down the way from my schooldays in Scotland, to find that the majorly important thing to Robert Bruce was the political ascendancy of family Bruce. Edited June 17, 2019 by beefybake 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeartsOfficialMoaner Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 My family name originates in Northumbria, it would have been good to learn a bit about my old country at school before the Scots and English took it over. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 13 minutes ago, Redstarstranraer said: I'd argue that the effects of Norman influence (when did the conquest happen up here out of interest?) and the reformation are under-explored but that has sod all to do with road signs. The Scottish king swore fealty to William. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Abernethy Within a century Scotland was dominated by French nobles allied to William. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 45 minutes ago, Detournement said: It's not gaelic road signs it's promoting gaelic as a national language when it has never been that. It's not something which happens in Italy or Germany. Probably because they don't speak Gaelic there either. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 33 minutes ago, MixuFixit said: How do you put any of this on a road sign?Gaelic people were removed from large parts of the country where it was what people spoke. The signs are a nice gesture to that. Do the signs say "Way out" in Gaelic? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redstarstranraer Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 4 minutes ago, Detournement said: The Scottish king swore fealty to William. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Abernethy Within a century Scotland was dominated by French nobles allied to William. So Norman influence then, qualitatively different from the actual Norman conquest. The two things are clearly not the same, not sure why you would conflate them unless you had a tendentious agenda to promote a narrative of the history of these isles which minimises any difference and seeks to establish the idea that we're all exactly the same. The same sort of agenda that would lead you to oppose minority languages being used on road signs. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 5 minutes ago, Redstarstranraer said: So Norman influence then, qualitatively different from the actual Norman conquest. The two things are clearly not the same, not sure why you would conflate them unless you had a tendentious agenda to promote a narrative of the history of these isles which minimises any difference and seeks to establish the idea that we're all exactly the same. The same sort of agenda that would lead you to oppose minority languages being used on road signs. Pointing out that the ruling class in England/Scotland were/are from the same ethnic group isn't minimising the differences between Scotland and England. The aristocracy are a small minority and shouldn't be allowed to define Scottishness. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redstarstranraer Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, Detournement said: Pointing out that the ruling class in England/Scotland were/are from the same ethnic group isn't minimising the differences between Scotland and England. The aristocracy are a small minority and shouldn't be allowed to define Scottishness. Eh? Who is "letting the aristocracy define Scottishness"? You brought up the entirely irrelevant status of the ruling class in 11-12th century Scotland to prove some kind of point, I really don't know what it is or what the hell it has to do with road signs. What is your argument here? Do you know? Kudos though, raising the Treaty of Abernethy as an argument about whether or not to put Gaelic on road signs in 2019 is some feat. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 5 minutes ago, Redstarstranraer said: Eh? Who is "letting the aristocracy define Scottishness"? You brought up the entirely irrelevant status of the ruling class in 11-12th century Scotland to prove some kind of point, I really don't know what it is or what the hell it has to do with road signs. What is your argument here? Do you know? Kudos though, raising the Treaty of Abernethy as an argument about whether or not to put Gaelic on road signs in 2019 is some feat. You were the one who said recognising that the Normans conquered Scotland was an attempt to minimise the difference between Scotland and England. My point is fairly simple. In every single country the ruling class use historical and cultural narratives to establish social hegemony. If you are interested in the process read up on Gramsci and Althusser (or their even just visit wiki pages). I think it's interesting and worthwhile to consider why some narratives are promoted in Scotland and some aren't and how that relates to contemporary social relations. My initial point was that the (false) promotion of gaelic as a national language is related to that process. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin_Nevis Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 You mean like how they already are?Anyone unable to deal with that shouldn't be fucking driving. Jesus H Christ [emoji38] 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redstarstranraer Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 I did my PhD on the use of historical narratives to build differing conceptions of national identity, but thanks for the patronising advice anyway. You were the one who brought the bloody Normans into the debate about putting Gaelic on signs in contemporary Scotland. I beg leave to think that an irrelevant and unproductive line of argumentation. There is precisely no evidence for any of the arguments you have made vis-a-vis the supposed ideological promotion of Gaelic as a "false" national language. If you can actually evince some evidence of there being a declared agenda by the "ruling class" to promote the language in this way in 2019 I'd be interested to see it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullerene Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 2 hours ago, welshbairn said: You mean like how they already are? Ross County used to have a player called Tony Inbhir Pheofharain. Where's he now? (Also, the Gaelic for Anthony is Blàir) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 17 hours ago, The Skelpit Lug said: There's a strong Gaelic literary tradition as well. compared to Navajo possibly 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 The promotion of gaelic is part of a pattern of myth building.someone’s read hobsbawm recently 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Steele Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 17 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said: compared to Navajo possibly Fair point. As an aside, it's interesting you mention Navajo because like all Native American literature it deals with issues such as a perceived loss of a Native voice, loss of land, displacement, as well as social and environmental issues. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted June 18, 2019 Author Share Posted June 18, 2019 14 hours ago, Fullerene said: Ross County used to have a player called Tony Inbhir Pheofharain. Where's he now? (Also, the Gaelic for Anthony is Blàir) Six miles away from that sign. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J_Stewart Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 (edited) 19 hours ago, MixuFixit said: Are you.... are you saying... the... the aristocracy are the ones behind the road signs? H_B has made some absolutely mind-blowingly ridiculous claims on this forum, but this is top 3 material, without question. The ruling classes keeping the proles in their places by adding Gaelic to road signs is the sort of 4D chess that obviously has them in the position of power they are. It's so Machiavellian that I don't even understand how it works. Clearly does though. Edited June 18, 2019 by J_Stewart 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J_Stewart Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 32 minutes ago, MixuFixit said: I can only assume Sir Edward Mountain complaining about them is some fiendishly clever scheme out of the mind of our version of Vladislav Surkov "If we intimate to the lower classes that we're against the incorporation of the Gaelic language to the road signs, they'll never discover that it's the one thing that allows us to enforce abject poverty and misery to their dreary lives, and maintain our rightful position as lords and masters...the pitiful fools...haaah haaah haaah" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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