General Politics Thread

[btb]

Meanwhile the country continues to drift as three Cabinet Ministers openly threaten to vote against the government while "real people"  continue to suffer Windrush, Homelessness, Universal Benefit scandals continue driven by a target orientated beaurocracy.

Although it may (sic) not be a case of abandoning collective by the three Ministers if you believe the rather paranoid ending to this statement by Tory Brexiteer Andrew Bridgeon

Quote

Three cabinet ministers who signalled they could vote to delay Britain’s withdrawal from the EU should resign, a Tory Brexiter MP has said.

Amber Rudd, Greg Clark and David Gauke should step down, said Andrew Bridgen, a member of the hard-Brexit European Research Group (ERG). He said the ministers were rejecting government policy in breach of cabinet collective responsibility.

“What they are actually saying is that they are rejecting collective responsibility of being in government, they are rejecting government policy,” he told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme. “In that case, they should do the honourable thing and resign from the government immediately.”

He accused Downing Street of orchestrating their actions in an attempt to pressurise Tory Brexiters into backing Theresa May’s withdrawal agreement. 

“This is partly organised by No 10 – potentially Robbie Gibb, the comms director – to try to bully Brexit-supporting MPs into supporting the withdrawal agreement. I am afraid this is not going to work,” he said.

 

[beefybake]

22 hours ago, Cerberus said:

I don't know about the rest of the MPs but there have been a few incidents around Corbyn.

He didn't want to accept the full IHRA definition of antisemitism.
He went to the funeral of the Palestinian terrorists.
He compared Israel to the Nazis.
He made that speech about Jews not fitting into English culture.
He liked that antisemitic mural in London.

That's the ones I can remember. I'm sure there are more examples.

 

My general view of Corbyn is that he has always been on the side of the oppressed.

 

[Detournement]

On 2/22/2019 at 19:02, welshbairn said:

It would be hard to see this mural that Corbyn defended as anything other than anti semitic. The artist even admitted it was deliberately so.

He didn't defend it.

He said “Why? You are in good company. Rockerfeller [sic] destroyed Diego Viera’s [sic] mural because it includes a picture of Lenin.”

[welshbairn]

7 minutes ago, Detournement said:

He didn't defend it.

He said “Why? You are in good company. Rockerfeller [sic] destroyed Diego Viera’s [sic] mural because it includes a picture of Lenin.”

Of course he was defending it. "Why?" was asking the reason for scrubbing it off the wall in the East End of London. If you don't see it as hitting every anti semitic trope going apart from drinking the blood of Christian children, you should probably apply for a job on the Labour disciplinary team. 

[Loondave1]

My general view of Corbyn is that he has always been on the side of the oppressed.
 

Reading the Sunday Mails damning report about him having a cat called Harold Wilson in the 70s and his preference for own brand baked beans just shores up my support.

[Detournement]

19 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Of course he was defending it. "Why?" was asking the reason for scrubbing it off the wall in the East End of London. If you don't see it as hitting every anti semitic trope going apart from drinking the blood of Christian children, you should probably apply for a job on the Labour disciplinary team. 

It's possible he looked at the picture on his phone where it wouldn't have been very clear.

Saying 'Why?' isn't defending something.

[Jmothecat2]

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/feb/24/dangerous-hero-tom-bower-jeremy-corbyn-hatchet-job-failure

Good review of the Tom Bower hatchet job, pretty much saying what any of us unfortunate enough to have read any excerpts from the book would have thought. Nothing new included, critical of things that make no sense, facts genuinely wrong and at one point mistakingly calling Labour MP Cat Smith, Cat Stevens. Nothing more than propaganda created to have Daily Mail readers frothing at the mouth over Corbyn by the sounds of it, exactly as suspected when everyone found out Tom Bower was doing a 'biography' of him.


On the issue of Corbyn at the moment I do very much get the impression he doesn't actually think anti-semitism is a problem in the Labour Party. Watching Barry Gardiner's excellent, angry, speech on the commons last week referring to his disgust that we've got to a point where a Jewish Labour MP feels she can't stay in the part any longer, and even John McDonnell getting the tone right and trying to emphasise that he and the party are taking this very seriously, Corbyn's reaction feels lukewarm and suggests he thinks not only that the defections are wrong, but that all the reasoning behind the defections are wrong as well.

[Granny Danger]

20 minutes ago, Jmothecat2 said:

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/feb/24/dangerous-hero-tom-bower-jeremy-corbyn-hatchet-job-failure

Good review of the Tom Bower hatchet job, pretty much saying what any of us unfortunate enough to have read any excerpts from the book would have thought. Nothing new included, critical of things that make no sense, facts genuinely wrong and at one point mistakingly calling Labour MP Cat Smith, Cat Stevens. Nothing more than propaganda created to have Daily Mail readers frothing at the mouth over Corbyn by the sounds of it, exactly as suspected when everyone found out Tom Bower was doing a 'biography' of him.


On the issue of Corbyn at the moment I do very much get the impression he doesn't actually think anti-semitism is a problem in the Labour Party. Watching Barry Gardiner's excellent, angry, speech on the commons last week referring to his disgust that we've got to a point where a Jewish Labour MP feels she can't stay in the part any longer, and even John McDonnell getting the tone right and trying to emphasise that he and the party are taking this very seriously, Corbyn's reaction feels lukewarm and suggests he thinks not only that the defections are wrong, but that all the reasoning behind the defections are wrong as well.

Can you direct me to a site that gives details of theses anti-Semitic actions/comments by Labour Party members?

I have asked this a number of times on this thread in the last week but with no joy.

 

[Bairnardo]

Can you direct me to a site that gives details of theses anti-Semitic actions/comments by Labour Party members?
I have asked this a number of times on this thread in the last week but with no joy.
 

This.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Can you direct me to a site that gives details of theses anti-Semitic actions/comments by Labour Party members?
I have asked this a number of times on this thread in the last week but with no joy.
 

I am aware that there have been 6 separate prosecutions related to antisemitic abuse received by Luciana Berger on her Twitter feed. Four of these came from the far right and two from the far left.

[ICTJohnboy]

I'm no fan of George Galloway, particularly with his stance on Brexit and Scottish Independence, but this recent interview on SkyNews is definitely one of his better moments. Apologies if this has already been posted on these threads.

 

 

 

Edited February 24, 2019 by ICTJohnboy

[Granny Danger]

2 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

1 hour ago, Granny Danger said:

Can you direct me to a site that gives details of theses anti-Semitic actions/comments by Labour Party members?
I have asked this a number of times on this thread in the last week but with no joy.
 

I am aware that there have been 6 separate prosecutions related to antisemitic abuse received by Luciana Berger on her Twitter feed. Four of these came from the far right and two from the far left.

Any from Labour Party members?

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Any from Labour Party members?

I've been trying to get the full details but it's difficult. 

 

 

I've no doubt there have been some arseholes who have resorted to antisemitic language but that doesn't necessarily make the Labour Party antisemitic

 

You know my view on this but I will repeat. I genuinely believe that Corbyn doesn't have an antisemitic bone in his body but also naively treats his enemy of his enemy as his friend. There have been instances where he has unwittingly been linked to known antisemitic propoganda - the controversy over the Mear One mural for example - Corbyn himself admitted he commented about the mural being removed without fully bring aware of its content.

 

I do believe there is an issue with some antisemites infiltrating the Labour Party during its big increase in membership but that is something all political parties can fall victim to. I don't believe that it is anywhere near the level that some are making it out to be - yes there will be particular individuals like Berger who have faced antisemitic abuse but I think some of the others in the TIG are using the issue as they have other axes to grind.

 

Allowing Derek Hatton back into the Labour Party despite a known antisemitic tweet didn't help - thankfully he was only given provisional membership and suspended - but one wonders why he got as far as being accepted. That smacks of incompetence not antisemitism.

 

Labour need to be seen to take the issue seriously - I'm no fan of McDonnell but he at least is competent and recognises the issue is damaging Labour (more through perception than reality IMHO).

 

 

 

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

I've been trying to get the full details but it's difficult. 

 

 

I've no doubt there have been some arseholes who have resorted to antisemitic language but that doesn't necessarily make the Labour Party antisemitic

 

You know my view on this but I will repeat. I genuinely believe that Corbyn doesn't have an antisemitic bone in his body but also naively treats his enemy of his enemy as his friend. There have been instances where he has unwittingly been linked to known antisemitic propoganda - the controversy over the Mear One mural for example - Corbyn himself admitted he commented about the mural being removed without fully bring aware of its content.

 

I do believe there is an issue with some antisemites infiltrating the Labour Party during its big increase in membership but that is something all political parties can fall victim to. I don't believe that it is anywhere near the level that some are making it out to be - yes there will be particular individuals like Berger who have faced antisemitic abuse but I think some of the others in the TIG are using the issue as they have other axes to grind.

 

Allowing Derek Hatton back into the Labour Party despite a known antisemitic tweet didn't help - thankfully he was only given provisional membership and suspended - but one wonders why he got as far as being accepted. That smacks of incompetence not antisemitism.

 

Labour need to be seen to take the issue seriously - I'm no fan of McDonnell but he at least is competent and recognises the issue is damaging Labour (more through perception than reality IMHO).

 

 

 

True anti semites would surely be more inclined towards joining the likes of UKIP, Conservatives or the EDL etc ?

I think the majority of this problem / perceived problem is that a narrative has appeared over the past couple of years, fuelled in part by the centre right Labour MP's and their backers, that socialism is not compatible with Judaism as we have the old stereotype that every Jew is a money grabbing, money hoarding, power mad maniac, of course in reality there are many poor Jews as they're not all investment bankers, media moguls or running Governments but this is the stereotype which is being pushed to make a case against a Corbyn led socialist leaning Government.

As a result of the above, true socialists are now being tarred as anti semites, simply because they are socialists and of course the people behind this narrative are indeed terrified of a socialist Government coming to power.

Make no mistake, this has NOTHING to do with religion and everything to do with the rich and powerful fearing that they may have to part with some of their wealth and they will go to great lengths to ensure they and their wealth are protected............

[NotThePars]

It's kind of flabbergasting that Tom Bower called Michael Segalov a self hating Jew on national TV and nobody in the press is making any noise about it.

Everyone rushed online to defend human slug Stephen Daisley calling Kaufman a goyim or some mad anti-semitic slur.

[NotThePars]

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/feb/24/dangerous-hero-tom-bower-jeremy-corbyn-hatchet-job-failure

Good review of the Tom Bower hatchet job, pretty much saying what any of us unfortunate enough to have read any excerpts from the book would have thought. Nothing new included, critical of things that make no sense, facts genuinely wrong and at one point mistakingly calling Labour MP Cat Smith, Cat Stevens. Nothing more than propaganda created to have Daily Mail readers frothing at the mouth over Corbyn by the sounds of it, exactly as suspected when everyone found out Tom Bower was doing a 'biography' of him.

I know a couple of people who’ve read Bower’s other books and have said he’s always focused on following money trails and exposing the greed of former serving politicians and that’s why this book fails so hard. Corbyn clearly doesn’t give much of a shite about enriching himself.

[Granny Danger]

1 hour ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

I've been trying to get the full details but it's difficult. 

 

 

I've no doubt there have been some arseholes who have resorted to antisemitic language but that doesn't necessarily make the Labour Party antisemitic

 

You know my view on this but I will repeat. I genuinely believe that Corbyn doesn't have an antisemitic bone in his body but also naively treats his enemy of his enemy as his friend. There have been instances where he has unwittingly been linked to known antisemitic propoganda - the controversy over the Mear One mural for example - Corbyn himself admitted he commented about the mural being removed without fully bring aware of its content.

 

I do believe there is an issue with some antisemites infiltrating the Labour Party during its big increase in membership but that is something all political parties can fall victim to. I don't believe that it is anywhere near the level that some are making it out to be - yes there will be particular individuals like Berger who have faced antisemitic abuse but I think some of the others in the TIG are using the issue as they have other axes to grind.

 

Allowing Derek Hatton back into the Labour Party despite a known antisemitic tweet didn't help - thankfully he was only given provisional membership and suspended - but one wonders why he got as far as being accepted. That smacks of incompetence not antisemitism.

 

Labour need to be seen to take the issue seriously - I'm no fan of McDonnell but he at least is competent and recognises the issue is damaging Labour (more through perception than reality IMHO).

 

 

 

I watched Barry Gardiner on Sophie Ridge this morning.  He’s not a guy I usually have much time for but he gave a very detailed account of the Labour Party’s complaints procedure into anti-Semitism and said that 12 members had had their membership removed and many others under investigation had not rejoined because they knew the same was going to happen to them.

He said the total number of complaints, including the unsubstantiated ones and ones not actually involving Labour Party members, amounted to less than 0.1% of Labour’s membership.  This is not the picture that’s being drawn by people like Berger and Umunna aided by the MSM.

 

Edited February 24, 2019 by Granny Danger

[DeeTillEhDeh]

I watched Barry Gardiner on Sophie Ridge this morning.  He’s not a guy I usually have much time for but he gave a very detailed account of the Labour Party’s complaints procedure into anti-Semitism and said that 12 members had had their membership removed and many others under investigation had not rejoined because they knew the same was going to happen to them. He said the total number of complaints, including the unsubstantiated ones and ones not actually involving Labour Party members, amounted to less than 0.1% of Labour’s membership.  This is not the picture that’s being drawn by people like Berger and Umunna aided by the MSM.

 

 

I think that's probably about right. 

 

 

It was Gardiner who reported Hatton for the 2012 comment - Gardiner was surprised that Hatton had actually been given provisional membership given that the 2012 tweet was common knowledge. At least it has been dealt with appropriately now. Antisemitism aside I can think of a good few other reasons why Hatton should be persona non gratia with the Labour Party.

 

I also genuinely believe that of the nine Labour MPs who have resigned only Berger has experienced any significant level of antisemitism - the rest I doubt have had anything like (or none at all quite possibly) an antisemitic experience. As I said, this is more to do with their general opposition to Corbyn than anything else.

 

 

[Granny Danger]

Tom Watson should be binned.  The Deputy Leader of the Labour Party is encouraging the ‘Labour Party is anti-Semitic’ narrative at every opportunity.

 

[Guest]

19 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

Tom Watson should be binned.  The Deputy Leader of the Labour Party is encouraging the ‘Labour Party is anti-Semitic’ narrative at every opportunity.

 

Yes, he's a disgusting character.