General Politics Thread

[Granny Danger]

I remember a lot of that when I was a student. A lot of people within the 'Free Palestine' movement with views that were clearly anti-Semitic. They seemed to genuinely believe that saying 'zionist' instead of 'Jewish' made clearly anti-Semitic sentiment OK. It seems to be a big problem amongst the left of the Labour Party and I can't figure out why.

I won't question your anecdotal 'evidence' and I'm sure there are people who are anti-Zionist that are also anti-Semitic. Equally I recall when I was active in the Labour Party standing up to the extreme right-wing groups whose main religious targets at that time were Jews rather than Muslims. (I'm going back to the 70s and 80s; the right wing didn't bother who they hated so long as the hated somebody).

Of course the idea that all anti-Zionists are anti-Semites is nonsense; there are many Jews who are anti-Zionist.

But the real worry are those who try to deflect from the worst excesses of the Israeli treatment of Palestinians by peddling the anti-Zioinist = anti-Semitist line. Those who don't question that argument do nothing to help the victims of anti-Semitism that are out there.

[vikingTON]

On a lighter note, it must be an absolute, full-blown minter to have your semi-serious political career obliterated by the formidable "talking truth to power" skills of, erm, Vanessa Feltz.

[THE KING]

No they didn't. The Nazis did not support Zionism: they supported compulsory ethnic cleansing of Jews from the Greater German Reich to any territory that would take them, without compensation and without any rights to the property held by Jews in that territory. That is not 'Zionism' champ. They did not support a Jewish national state either.

 

 

 

The "economic authorities of Nazi Germany" were not the principal drivers of Nazi policy on the Jewish question, not in 1933, nor in 1938, nor in 1941 when the Final Solution was adopted: Hitler and his close network of party grandees were. Nazi foreign policy goals determined by Hitler and the leading clique were overwhelmingly dominant in the policy process compared to even domestic economic planning, never mind support for Jewish emigration. The agreement was a minor sideshow to the central Nazi policy on the 'Jewish Question'; which at that time involved the forced expulsion of all European Jews to Siberia, once European Russia was captured for German colonists. It is therefore categorically wrong to describe Nazi policy in 1933 as 'support for Zionism': it is a lie peddled by anti-Semites in order to link Zionism with complicity in the Holocaust. That is the murky puddle of intellectual 'thought' that the likes of you and Livingstone swim in.

From The Jewish Virtual Libary (but what they know?)

The Zionists sought to attract immigrants to Palestine, most especially the affluent German Jewish immigrants and the Germans sought to get rid of their Jews, increase their exports and a propaganda victory by dividing the Jews regarding the boycott. The Haavara continued to function until World War II, in spite of vigorous attempts by the Nazi Party to stop or curtail its activities. The total transfer amounted to LP 8,100,000 (Palestine Pounds; then $40,419,000) including LP 2,600,000 (then $13,774,000) provided by the German Reichsbank in coordination with Haavara. The Haavara transfer was a major factor in making possible the immigration of approximately 60,000 German Jews to Palestine in the years 1933–1939, and together with the money invested by the immigrants themselves, in providing an incentive for the expansion of agricultural settlement and for general economic development. It also served as a model for a similar arrangement with the Czech government and the immigration of several thousand Jews on the eve of World War II.

[glasgow-sheep]

What was the context in livingstone bringing up hitler? Is he totally off his head. I think there is a legitimate discussion to be had about the labelling of any criticism of the Israeli state as anti semitism but trying to equate hitler with Zionism out of no where seems utterly bonkers.

He clearly has to go. The Bradford mp, had she said this as an mp should have gone but questions instead need to be asked about labour vetting that allowed her to stand in the first place.

Quite how labour are getting themselves into this mess when they should be hammering the Tories over child refugees, junior doctors and a shambles of a budget is a mystery. Next Thursday could be brutal for them

[NotThePars]

It's well within the interests of the pro-Zionist lobby to link any legitimate criticism of Israel with anti-semitism while at the same time many anti-semites will have learned to cloak their language and make their hatred of the Jewish people less obvious. That said I would believe that the pro-Palestine lobby will have the greatest interest and desire to root out legitimate anti-Semitism to legitimise themselves. Sam Kriss has written a decent piece for Vice on his unease at the Tories and others speaking on behalf of him and other Jewish critics of Israel.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

No it isn't - that suggests that Hitler's support for Jewish resettlement was a policy entirely distinct from his 'mad' phase of implementing the Final Solution. Next to no credible historians have ever argued this to be the case. It also misreads a willingness to forcibly resettle Jews from Germany and the intended Greater German Empire - to Mongolia, Madagascar, Palestine or anywhere that was suitable - as 'support for Zionism'. Zionism was not merely a campaign for Jewish resettlement somewhere else, and at no point did the Zionist movement call for the forced expulsion of Jews from their homes and seizure of their property under a racist-eugenicist premise. So no, Hitler was not a supporter of the Zionist movement.

Try again.

Needless to say I'm not surprised in the slightest to see you white knighting for the grubby anti-Semites that form an alarming section of the Labour and 'radical' left. The "Zionist lobby" indeed.

Absolutely.

The whole Hitler was a Zionist is a myth - the Madagascar option was what they told Jews in the ghettos about where Jews were being sent.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

I remember a lot of that when I was a student. A lot of people within the 'Free Palestine' movement with views that were clearly anti-Semitic. They seemed to genuinely believe that saying 'zionist' instead of 'Jewish' made clearly anti-Semitic sentiment OK. It seems to be a big problem amongst the left of the Labour Party and I can't figure out why.

The SWP and RCP always had large elements that were anti-semitic. Edited April 28, 2016 by DeeTillEhDeh

[Sherrif John Bunnell]

"Hitler was a Zionist" is the funniest thing I've seen on here since when Reynard insisted that Hitler was actually a massive lefty.

[vikingTON]

From The Jewish Virtual Libary (but what they know?)

 

Are you claiming that the Jewish Virtual Library states that "Hitler supported Zionism" or that "Hitler was a Zionist"? A simple yes or no answer will suffice.

 

The rest of your post simply rehashes the details of a document that is of minor, inconsequential importance to the history of Nazi policy towards the Jews. And also doesn't actually establish that Hitler 'supported' Zionism - any more so than the Nazi-Soviet Pact and subsequent economic aid demonstrated that Hitler 'supported' communism. Swing and a miss.

Edited April 28, 2016 by vikingTON

[HaikuHibee]

It's well within the interests of the pro-Zionist lobby to link any legitimate criticism of Israel with anti-semitism while at the same time many anti-semites will have learned to cloak their language and make their hatred of the Jewish people less obvious. That said I would believe that the pro-Palestine lobby will have the greatest interest and desire to root out legitimate anti-Semitism to legitimise themselves. Sam Kriss has written a decent piece for Vice on his unease at the Tories and others speaking on behalf of him and other Jewish critics of Israel.

 

Completely agree. Ken's comments were stupid though, hardly helped matters.

[williemillersmoustache]

 

[welshbairn]

There's a difference between legitimate criticisms of the Israeli government and the language and racism that came from these people. Some of them genuinely believe the state of Israel shouldn't exist at all. They would use negative Jewish stereotypes when talking about 'zionists'. Unfortunately at my university the left had a lot of these types, and I'm certainly not saying everyone on the 'Free Palestine' side is an anti-Semite it is clear that a lot of them are. The bizarre thing about it is as a democratic country with liberal laws (gay marriage for example) in a region of right-wing extremist you would think the left would love Israel.

What does ' ' mean?

I don't think it's anti semitic to question the moral grounds on which the Israelis achieved their state, but it is a fait accompli after nearly 70 years and several generations born there, and a fair few for decades more. To deny their right to be there now is foolish. But that doesn't make it anti semitic to question their right to turn the occupied territories into a series of enclaves separated by Israeli controlled roads and illegal settlements, or to complain about their siege of Gaza and all that entails, and massively disproportionate responses to their pathetic attempts to resist.

[Miguel Sanchez]

"The gays bring about the end of civilisation" sounds like the plot for a really long and really weird porn film.

[THE KING]

Are you claiming that the Jewish Virtual Library states that "Hitler supported Zionism" or that "Hitler was a Zionist"? A simple yes or no answer will suffice.

 

The rest of your post simply rehashes the details of a document that is of minor, inconsequential importance to the history of Nazi policy towards the Jews. And also doesn't actually establish that Hitler 'supported' Zionism - any more so than the Nazi-Soviet Pact and subsequent economic aid demonstrated that Hitler 'supported' communism. Swing and a miss.

No, is that clear enough for you?

I'll try again , the Nazis didn't support the idea of a Jewish state ever, but they supported the idea of getting German Jews out of Germany,VIA the Zionist ideology ,NOT for the same goals, but purely for racist reasons.

And that is an historical fact.

Livingstone isn't trying to suggest or imply that the Nazis backed a Jewish state or tried to help German Jews, it's the Fukin opposite!

He was only replying to a question (I gather) about it, and merely stated a fact that the Nazis DID support the Zionists (for their racist means) in 1933 then went on to exterminate them and millions others.

How anyone can see that as being a Nazi sympathiser is pathetic or suggest that he said Hitler was a Zionist?!

[jmothecat]

No, is that clear enough for you?I'll try again , the Nazis didn't support the idea of a Jewish state ever, but they supported the idea of getting German Jews out of Germany,VIA the Zionist ideology ,NOT for the same goals, but purely for racist reasons.And that is an historical fact.Livingstone isn't trying to suggest or imply that the Nazis backed a Jewish state or tried to help German Jews, it's the Fukin opposite! He was only replying to a question (I gather) about it, and merely stated a fact that the Nazis DID support the Zionists (for their racist means) in 1933 then went on to exterminate them and millions others.How anyone can see that as being a Nazi sympathiser is pathetic or suggest that he said Hitler was a Zionist?!

Livingstone literally said Hitler 'was supporting Zionism'. Livingstone also said that anti-semitism isn't the same as racism and that to be an anti-Semite you have to hate your Jewish neighbours, not just Israeli Jews.

[THE KING]

Livingstone literally said Hitler 'was supporting Zionism'. Livingstone also said that anti-semitism isn't the same as racism and that to be an anti-Semite you have to hate your Jewish neighbours, not just Israeli Jews.

I take your first point, Hitler/Nazis 'supporting Zionisim' doesn't mean for the the same ideal , for the Nazis it suited their racist ideology .

Secondly , I'd like to see that quote please.

[THE KING]

Livingstone literally said Hitler 'was supporting Zionism'. Livingstone also said that anti-semitism isn't the same as racism and that to be an anti-Semite you have to hate your Jewish neighbours, not just Israeli Jews.

Sorry mate, just watched the interview ,and the first 40 seconds is different from the media narrative being peddled..

[MarkoRaj]

Livingstone is right to say that criticism of the Israeli government shouldn't be conflated with anti-Semitism. The problem is he's defended someone who falls on the wrong side of that line and his own language is pretty disgusting as well. He appears to justify 'hating the Jews in Israel' as something less than 'hating Jewish neighbours'. Surely criticism of Israel doesn't have to mean hatred of any Jews.

The cretin has done more to conflate the 2 issues than ever before and now people are talking about an 'antisemitism problem'. Hopefully pro-Palestinian campaigners distance themselves from this idiot. Thankfully Galloway's dived head first into defending him and thus I no longer have to worry about being on the same side as him on this issue

[Granny Danger]

According to the BBC and various on-line newspapers, 'Labour needs to do more to address anti-Semitism', and 'There is a growing culture of anti-Semitism in the Labour Party'.

I'm wondering how Naz Shah's comments and Livingstone's I'll judged remarks equate to those sort of headlines.

If there was some form of institutional anti-Semitism within the Labour Party surely there are other examples that would have been highlighted by now. Personally I'm struggling to think of other stories that support the hyperbole.

It's like folk accusing SNP supporters of being anti-English then offering no evidence to support the claim.

[jmothecat]

Sorry mate, just watched the interview ,and the first 40 seconds is different from the media narrative being peddled..

Wrong interview. He says the thing about anti-Semites not just hating Jews from Israel on about two minutes onwards:

The media 'narrative' is an accurate summation of what he said over his various interviews yesterday.

Edited April 29, 2016 by jmothecat