Inanimate Carbon Rod Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 56 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said: Fare aversion is a criminal offence in the UK, though, as is giving false details, so you are wrong here. Granted an earlier poster pointed out this currently isn't the case within Scotland, but the SG could quite easily make it so if actually reducing fare aversion was something they wanted to do. Yes it is a criminal offence, but ticket inspectors are not warranted and a penalty fare is a non criminal disposal. Can you point me to any piece of legislation which provides a power of detention (besides common law which doesnt apply here) and requirement to provide details? There may be a railways bylaw or something but in common law or regular criminal statute I cant think of one. 56 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said: I'm aware of the limitations of them. There seems to be a bit of a huge lack of understanding of the purpose of penalty fares tbh, which is leading to people claiming it's just not possible to do anything in Scotland because you can't catch everyone. What you’ve suggested is a sledgehammer to crack a nut type scenario. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 1 minute ago, virginton said: A decent union - as I'm sure the 'we're all working class after all' contingent would agree - should actually prioritise the needs of the most vulnerable in society over the take home income of its comfortably well-off members. It should also value the collective good of all workers before its narrow, sectional interests. Railway unions are (for now, quite effective) syndicalists who on balance harm the rest of society with their medieval guild style antics. Narrow syndicalism undermines support for worker organisation in society rather than strengthens it, because the zero-sum game of how public money is distributed takes over. While undoubtedly acting from a weakened position in doing this, they are simply walking into a trap in the long-term. I would go for this WW2 all stick together in the Blitz spirit and share the pot of money to who needs it most spirit to keep inflation from spiralling, but it's not going to happen. I understand the message from the £570,000 a year Chairman of the Bank of England is telling us, but these City boys aren't playing ball. The last major crisis was solved by freezing everyone's wages but using quantitative easing to make sure the bankers' bonuses were paid. It's a dog eat dog world and fight for whatever you can get. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Left Back Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 6 minutes ago, welshbairn said: I would go for this WW2 all stick together in the Blitz spirit and share the pot of money to who needs it most spirit to keep inflation from spiralling, but it's not going to happen. I understand the message from the £570,000 a year Chairman of the Bank of England is telling us, but these City boys aren't playing ball. The last major crisis was solved by freezing everyone's wages but using quantitative easing to make sure the bankers' bonuses were paid. It's a dog eat dog world and fight for whatever you can get. The last crisis similar to this spiralled out of control for years because the unions kept demanding higher and higher pay increases to keep pace. https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/glossary/wage-price-spiral/ This ultimately led to Thatcher taking on the unions. As someone said earlier there might be short term gain but eventually they’ll be clipped. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
54_and_counting Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 Nobody believes anyone will get their wages cut, but they need to make the money back somehow so watch as other services are cut (one green bin uplift a month coming our way perhaps) as staff leaving, retiring, or deed, are not replaced 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 10 minutes ago, welshbairn said: I would go for this WW2 all stick together in the Blitz spirit and share the pot of money to who needs it most spirit to keep inflation from spiralling, but it's not going to happen. I understand the message from the £570,000 a year Chairman of the Bank of England is telling us, but these City boys aren't playing ball. The last major crisis was solved by freezing everyone's wages but using quantitative easing to make sure the bankers' bonuses were paid. It's a dog eat dog world and fight for whatever you can get. I'm sure that the essential workers who are already on crap wages will be thrilled to hear this endorsement of every other sector fighting like rats in a sack to get as much as they can get from the same public purse, because tough shit. FWIW, the eventual pay rise in the region of 5% with the drivers is reasonable. More sectors will have to accept haircuts to keep the basics of a functioning public sector going though: that's simply unavoidable until either wealth taxes come in or the lunatic sanctions blowback is eliminated. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmic Joe Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 8 minutes ago, Left Back said: The last crisis similar to this spiralled out of control for years because the unions kept demanding higher and higher pay increases to keep pace. https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/glossary/wage-price-spiral/ This ultimately led to Thatcher taking on the unions. As someone said earlier there might be short term gain but eventually they’ll be clipped. Who are "they"? And what did Thatcher achieve after her endeavours? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 (edited) 11 hours ago, IrishBhoy said: The conductor will need to have a basic understanding of how the train operates, what to do if the train breaks down, how to safely deal with a derailment/train crash, how to deal with someone who has been electrocuted, how to deal with fatalities on the track etc etc. That’s just off the top of my head I’m sure there is much more involved in the role that I’ve missed. It’s hardly the sort of job you walk into straight off the street. Exactly this. They have fairly wide safety responsibilities above and beyond being what most people on this thread seem to think - basically a cinema box office teenager on wheels by the sounds of it. And the hours are basically shifts all hours of the day, seven days a week. I dont think there’s any shift pay involved for that - it’s included in the salary quoted. My MIL is a conductor on the trains in Northern Ireland. The amount of abuse she gets from the resident failed statelet mentalists is wild. £33k for that job doesn’t seem unreasonable to me at all. Edited June 17, 2022 by Jamie_Beatson 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Left Back Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 16 minutes ago, Cosmic Joe said: Who are "they"? And what did Thatcher achieve after her endeavours? They are the unions. Your second question isn’t worthy of a response. If you don’t know the history of Thatcher and the unions maybe you should stay out of this debate. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmic Joe Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 2 minutes ago, Left Back said: They are the unions. Your second question isn’t worthy of a response. If you don’t know the history of Thatcher and the unions maybe you should stay out of this debate. It's a serious question. I'll reframe it. Has Thatcher's legacy left Scotland a better place to live in today? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eatmygoal Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 1 hour ago, Left Back said: https://unison-scotland.org/unison-submits-pay-claim-for-nhs-workers-to-address-rising-inflation/ You’re very naive. I perhaps didn't phrase that very well. Your average public sector worker does not expect an above or even inflation matching pay rise. What they hope for is not to stay static as the world around them pulls away. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
54_and_counting Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 2 minutes ago, Eatmygoal said: I perhaps didn't phrase that very well. Your average public sector worker does not expect an above or even inflation matching pay rise. What they hope for is not to stay static as the world around them pulls away. Not much of the world will pull away, given theres literally loads of sectors lagging behind the public sector and will likely never catch up 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Left Back Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 6 minutes ago, Cosmic Joe said: It's a serious question. I'll reframe it. Has Thatcher's legacy left Scotland a better place to live in today? You’re asking the wrong question so I’ll ask it for you. Did the ever increasing union demands leave them with less power to protect their members and therefore leave them worse off in the long term? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmic Joe Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 I'm asking the wrong question? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eatmygoal Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 1 hour ago, strichener said: The public sector did very well out of that very same bailout. The public sector is still "recovering" from COVID and will never get back to the same level of (in)efficiency that they had previously. One of the main trade offs between working in the public and private sector is job security vs earning potential. Given that we saw that the government is happy to bail out private enterprise to such an extent perhaps it's only fair those in the public sector up their wages a little from time to time. I'm being slightly facetious, but why should one group be allowed to benefit from the best of both worlds and the other not. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Left Back Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 1 minute ago, Cosmic Joe said: I'm asking the wrong question? Yes, and you clearly can’t realise why. I’ll ask a different question then. Why do you think Thatchers legacy with the unions made Scotland a worse place to live? When you answer that the penny might drop. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
54_and_counting Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 5 minutes ago, Eatmygoal said: One of the main trade offs between working in the public and private sector is job security vs earning potential. Given that we saw that the government is happy to bail out private enterprise to such an extent perhaps it's only fair those in the public sector up their wages a little from time to time. I'm being slightly facetious, but why should one group be allowed to benefit from the best of both worlds and the other not. The public sector upping their wages isnt an issue, its the sectors already on a decent wage, that want to up their wages knowing full well their wage rises will be passed on to the rest of the shmucks who need the services they provide Do you think the poor worker on 11 quid an hour will love a fare rise on his daily train to cover these rail workers getting even more money than he/she does Its not like the wage rises will bring about a better service either, it will still be shit, just a better paying shit service 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd_is_God Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said: Can you point me to any piece of legislation which provides a... requirement to provide details? I already have Requirement for a person to give name and address 13.—(1) Where a collector proposes to charge a person a penalty fare under regulation 5(1), that person must, subject to regulation 10(4), provide their name and address when required to do so by the collector. (2) Any person who fails to provide their name and address in accordance with paragraph (1) is guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 2 on the standard scale https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/187936.aspx#:~:text=If you board a train,a 'Penalty Fares Collector'. It's already been discussed that the above currently does not apply in Scotland, but that the SG could, quite easily, change that if they so desired. Edited June 17, 2022 by Todd_is_God 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 4 minutes ago, 54_and_counting said: The public sector upping their wages isnt an issue, its the sectors already on a decent wage, that want to up their wages knowing full well their wage rises will be passed on to the rest of the shmucks who need the services they provide Do you think the poor worker on 11 quid an hour will love a fare rise on his daily train to cover these rail workers getting even more money than he/she does Its not like the wage rises will bring about a better service either, it will still be shit, just a better paying shit service It looks to me like the train drivers have set up a 5% minimum to strive for in public sector negotiations. Champions of the working classes imo. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
54_and_counting Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 3 minutes ago, welshbairn said: It looks to me like the train drivers have set up a 5% minimum to strive for in public sector negotiations. Champions of the working classes imo. Aye until the working class (what wage are they on again) need to pay more taxes to cover the public sector getting nice cushty rises, Im sure the retail workers on a tenner an hour will be out protesting in favour of the train drivers getting 5% on a already good wage, 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Eatmygoal said: One of the main trade offs between working in the public and private sector is job security vs earning potential. Given that we saw that the government is happy to bail out private enterprise to such an extent perhaps it's only fair those in the public sector up their wages a little from time to time. I'm being slightly facetious, but why should one group be allowed to benefit from the best of both worlds and the other not. I think you will find that the public v private sector wage comparison is not what you think it is. Quote Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings (ASHE) 2018 provisional results, published on 25 October 2018, show that public sector pay in Scotland is slightly higher than the UK, at £15.51 per hour compared to £15.32 per hour. Private sector pay is lower than the UK, at £11.78 per hour in the UK and £11.36 per hour in Scotland. Source That was even before the highly paid rail workers were classed as public sector. Edited June 17, 2022 by strichener -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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