Todd_is_God Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 5 minutes ago, IrishBhoy said: I honestly don’t. I’m just trying to think one step beyond ‘give train conductors the authority to issue on the spot penalty notices’. Its never going to happen. They already have that authority, though... Penalty fares 5.—(1) Subject to regulations 6, 7 and 10, if a person fails to produce a platform ticket or a valid travel ticket in accordance with regulation 4, a collector may charge that person a penalty fare. (2) Where a collector charges a penalty fare to a person under paragraph (1), the collector must provide that person with the following information in writing at the time the penalty fare is charged— (a) a statement that the person is being charged a penalty fare; (b) an explanation of why the person is being charged a penalty fare; (c) the identification number of the collector; (d) the name of the operator on whose behalf the penalty fare is charged; (e) the penalty fare number; (f) the amount of the penalty fare; (g) a statement that the person has the right to appeal against the penalty fare and an explanation of how the person can appeal; (h) a statement that the person must either pay, or appeal against, the penalty fare within 21 days beginning with the day following the day on which the penalty fare is charged; (i) an explanation of how the penalty fare may be paid; and (j) a statement that the person is entitled to a receipt if they pay the penalty fare. (3) Where a person who is charged a penalty fare under paragraph (1) pays the penalty fare 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishBhoy Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 2 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said: No there wouldn't. That idea is that the threat of being issued with a penalty fare if caught is enough to dissuade people from chancing it. By the time you board a train, if you've already bought your ticket, that no-one later inspects it makes no difference. I've travelled on trains in Germany multiple times and seen a ticket inspector once. Not a chance i'd risk it, though, as they don't f**k about if they catch you. All that is required is regular issuing and publicising of penalty fares. Ok agreed. But in order to create that threat there would need to be a period of time where people were being issued with penalty fares. It would only work if someone who regularly skipped the fare had experience of either them, or someone they know being issued with a fine in order for them to change their ways. So during this time of an initial clamp down on fare dodging, what process would you put in place in order that a) the penalty goes to the correct person: b) the person issuing the penalty has the authority to enforce it and c) the railway staff aren’t being put in a position that they haven’t received the correct training for. The sensible solution to those 3 questions is to have the BTP issue the fines, because they already tick every one of those boxes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishBhoy Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said: They already have that authority, though... Penalty fares 5.—(1) Subject to regulations 6, 7 and 10, if a person fails to produce a platform ticket or a valid travel ticket in accordance with regulation 4, a collector may charge that person a penalty fare. (2) Where a collector charges a penalty fare to a person under paragraph (1), the collector must provide that person with the following information in writing at the time the penalty fare is charged— (a) a statement that the person is being charged a penalty fare; (b) an explanation of why the person is being charged a penalty fare; (c) the identification number of the collector; (d) the name of the operator on whose behalf the penalty fare is charged; (e) the penalty fare number; (f) the amount of the penalty fare; (g) a statement that the person has the right to appeal against the penalty fare and an explanation of how the person can appeal; (h) a statement that the person must either pay, or appeal against, the penalty fare within 21 days beginning with the day following the day on which the penalty fare is charged; (i) an explanation of how the penalty fare may be paid; and (j) a statement that the person is entitled to a receipt if they pay the penalty fare. (3) Where a person who is charged a penalty fare under paragraph (1) pays the penalty fare Again, address that penalty fare to Barney Rubble, 123 Real Street. What is a train conductor going to be able to do when confronted with fraudulent details? Phone the Scotrail office and search them up on Facebook? Unworkable. Edited June 17, 2022 by IrishBhoy 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd_is_God Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 2 minutes ago, IrishBhoy said: Ok agreed. But in order to create that threat there would need to be a period of time where people were being issued with penalty fares. It would only work if someone who regularly skipped the fare had experience of either them, or someone they know being issued with a fine in order for them to change their ways. So during this time of an initial clamp down on fare dodging, what process would you put in place in order that a) the penalty goes to the correct person: b) the person issuing the penalty has the authority to enforce it and c) the railway staff aren’t being put in a position that they haven’t received the correct training for. The sensible solution to those 3 questions is to have the BTP issue the fines, because they already tick every one of those boxes. I've answered all of those questions already tbf, as well as outlining how I believe the process should work. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 Get the BTP involved. Not like there hasn't been initiatives in the past. https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2021/03/cracks-down-on-fare-dodgers-across-scotlands-railway-network.html 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishBhoy Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 Just now, Todd_is_God said: I've answered all of those questions already tbf, as well as outlining how I believe the process should work. But you’ve still came to the conclusion that a train conductor is in a better position to deal with that situation over a police officer? I think we will need to agree to disagree then. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd_is_God Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 1 minute ago, IrishBhoy said: Again, address that penalty fare to Barney Rubble, 123 Real Street. What is a train conductor going to be able to do when confronted with fraudulent details? Phone the Scotrail office and search them up on Facebook? Unworkable. What does a shopkeeper do when you steal from them? The pass evidence to the police and let them decide what to do with it. If Barney Rubble wants to chance later being identified and prosecuted for committing what is already a criminal offence I'm not really sure what you want me to say to that tbh. I would argue, however, that providing false details is clear evidence of a deliberate attempt to evade a fare - an offence which carries a higher penalty than a bog standard penalty fare. Again, how much of a dick would you feel if you ended up with a criminal record for trying to avoid paying a few quid for the train, and then giving false details. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd_is_God Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 4 minutes ago, IrishBhoy said: But you’ve still came to the conclusion that a train conductor is in a better position to deal with that situation over a police officer? I think we will need to agree to disagree then. I don't believe I said anything remotely like the above 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishBhoy Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 Can just imagine the admin staff in the procurator fiscals office after the fare dodging crack down starts. ‘I didn’t know there was a Sesame Street in Maryhill, and the guys name is Robert C Nesbitt’. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishBhoy Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 2 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said: What does a shopkeeper do when you steal from them? The pass evidence to the police and let them decide what to do with it. If Barney Rubble wants to chance later being identified and prosecuted for committing what is already a criminal offence I'm not really sure what you want me to say to that tbh. I would argue, however, that providing false details is clear evidence of a deliberate attempt to evade a fare - an offence which carries a higher penalty than a bog standard penalty fare. Again, how much of a dick would you feel if you ended up with a criminal record for trying to avoid paying a few quid for the train, and then giving false details. I’m sure Pitt Street police station will drop everything in order to try and find a guy who’s told a train conductor his name is Barney Rubble, with only a blurred CCTV image to go off, in order to issue a penalty notice. I get the feeling that you hold the crime of giving false details in the same bracket as attempted murder. It’s literally not worth the time or effort to even begin to try and positively identify someone who has given false details for a non-violent crime. This might come as a shock to you but the crime of giving false details for skipping a train fare isn’t going to rank highly on the list of priorities for the police. I would hope that they have bigger fish to fry tbh. On your last paragraph, I think the sort of people who regularly dodge train fares are also the exact kind of people who wouldn’t think twice about giving false details, especially to a train conductor who has no means to either confirm or deny that they are who they say they are. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
54_and_counting Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 6 hours ago, 'WellDel said: . In response to another poster who stated that the salary for the position was 'wild'. Higher than the average it may be, but still very firmly in the working class bracket. I don't think earning a wee bit of commission on top of it would quite have them leafing through brochures for a new yacht.. Absolutely no chance they are in the "working class" bracket, 33 grand a year is a little over 2 grand a month after tax and NI, take another 150 off for pension and its a flat 2 grand a month net wage, thats not working class ffs 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bairnardo Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 Have we done "what defines your class" yet? I feel sure we have.... What were the conclusions? Why would you want to continue perpetuating such arbitrary division anyway? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 Never seen this coming. I thought everyone knew about railway wages in general and conductor's commission. The Sweeper-upper at Central will be retiring to Necker Island. Drivers will be living on Mars with Elon Musk. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 17 minutes ago, 54_and_counting said: Absolutely no chance they are in the "working class" bracket, 33 grand a year is a little over 2 grand a month after tax and NI, take another 150 off for pension and its a flat 2 grand a month net wage, thats not working class ffs Damned unions, paying the working classes middle class wages, where will it end?!? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19QOS19 Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 Absolutely no chance they are in the "working class" bracket, 33 grand a year is a little over 2 grand a month after tax and NI, take another 150 off for pension and its a flat 2 grand a month net wage, thats not working class ffsTo be pedantic. It's a 4 weekly pay so technically the monthly pay isn't a comfortable 2K on payday. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishBhoy Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 19 minutes ago, 54_and_counting said: Absolutely no chance they are in the "working class" bracket, 33 grand a year is a little over 2 grand a month after tax and NI, take another 150 off for pension and its a flat 2 grand a month net wage, thats not working class ffs On what planet is £500 a week not working class I don’t think you know what working class is tbh. Are you going to claim it’s middle class to give us all a laugh? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
54_and_counting Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 (edited) 20 minutes ago, IrishBhoy said: On what planet is £500 a week not working class I don’t think you know what working class is tbh. Are you going to claim it’s middle class to give us all a laugh? 500 after tax, NI and pensions is working class? a pension that is likely 300 a month minimum put into it, Cetainly not working class, if you think 500 is working class (13 quid an hour after deductions) what would you call the nhs staff that are on 12 quid an hour before tax? Edited June 17, 2022 by 54_and_counting 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
54_and_counting Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 24 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said: 43 minutes ago, 54_and_counting said: Absolutely no chance they are in the "working class" bracket, 33 grand a year is a little over 2 grand a month after tax and NI, take another 150 off for pension and its a flat 2 grand a month net wage, thats not working class ffs To be pedantic. It's a 4 weekly pay so technically the monthly pay isn't a comfortable 2K on payday. Well yes the monthly pay is still a comfortable 2k in the hand, they are 4 weekly so 13 pays a year is around 1800 after deductions every 4 weeks Put that into perspective, asda workers are paid 4 weekly, a full time worker for them is around 1200 every 4 weeks after deductions, and their pension contributions are nowhere near what the conductors are 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 FFS don't let on what the Scotrail plumbers get, folk will have a fit. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
54_and_counting Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 29 minutes ago, welshbairn said: Damned unions, paying the working classes middle class wages, where will it end?!? Never said it was wrong, just think that describing 500 a week give or take in your hand as working class is a bit shit given theres plenty of workers on way less 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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