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ScottR96

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4 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

Machines could be broken for a start. Someone might be delayed unexpectedly and not have the time they thought they would to buy a ticket. Other reasons too.

These are just excuses. If the ticket machine is broken, and the ticket office is closed, buy your ticket on the app.

In 2022 with the technology that now exists then there is no excuse for boarding a train you haven't paid for.

7 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

If a conductor said they were going to fine me for boarding without a ticket, I'd just get off at the next stop and they'd get nothing (and if there were barriers I'd just get the cheapest ticket. If instead they sold me a ticket, I'd buy a ticket.

I don't think you understand the concept of a penalty fare tbh. For them to be a deterrent, they can't be optional.

13 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

No idea why anyone would have an issue with conductors selling tickets on the train... it's utterly harmless.

It's not "harmless" though, is it? Almost everyone buying a ticket on the train now is doing so not because they couldn't buy one before boarding, but because they were hoping they'd get away with not having to pay their fare.

If revenue protection is the aim, then getting rid of the "if you get caught you can just buy the ticket you chose not to" option would be a good start.

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7 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

These are just excuses. If the ticket machine is broken, and the ticket office is closed, buy your ticket on the app.

In 2022 with the technology that now exists then there is no excuse for boarding a train you haven't paid for.

I don't think you understand the concept of a penalty fare tbh. For them to be a deterrent, they can't be optional.

It's not "harmless" though, is it? Almost everyone buying a ticket on the train now is doing so not because they couldn't buy one before boarding, but because they were hoping they'd get away with not having to pay their fare.

If revenue protection is the aim, then getting rid of the "if you get caught you can just buy the ticket you chose not to" option would be a good start.

Really unsure why you think it's an issue for conductors to sell tickets to the small number of people who board without a ticket.

You say what I noted are 'just excuses', but that's an incredibly inflexible and odd attitude to have.

How would penalty fares be enforced? Like I said, if that happened to me I'd just get off at the next stop. How would the conductor stop me and make me pay? They could maybe try the police but there's no guarantee that police would arrive on time.

It is harmless for conductors to sell tickets on the train. Again, utterly bizarre that you think otherwise. I imagine some folk are doing it to try to skipna fare, but not the majority. You can roll out your spiel again about the app etc, but for some folk in society there might be issues there.

If revenue protection is the aim then getting a fare out of someone sounds pretty reasonable to me.

I imagine the number of folk buying tickets on the train is really small, so absolutely not getting the issue here at all. It's all rather bewildering why anyone would see a problem.

Incidentally, some buses still have conductors...

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19 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

Really unsure why you think it's an issue for conductors to sell tickets to the small number of people who board without a ticket.

You say what I noted are 'just excuses', but that's an incredibly inflexible and odd attitude to have.

How would penalty fares be enforced? Like I said, if that happened to me I'd just get off at the next stop. How would the conductor stop me and make me pay? They could maybe try the police but there's no guarantee that police would arrive on time.

It is harmless for conductors to sell tickets on the train. Again, utterly bizarre that you think otherwise. I imagine some folk are doing it to try to skipna fare, but not the majority. You can roll out your spiel again about the app etc, but for some folk in society there might be issues there.

If revenue protection is the aim then getting a fare out of someone sounds pretty reasonable to me.

I imagine the number of folk buying tickets on the train is really small, so absolutely not getting the issue here at all. It's all rather bewildering why anyone would see a problem.

Incidentally, some buses still have conductors...


Not saying I disagree with you, but penalty fares exist in many countries around the world, including in lots of Europe. I think they may exist in some places in England too.

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Just now, DA Baracus said:

Really unsure why you think it's an issue for conductors to sell tickets to the small number of people who board without a ticket.

I think i've made it pretty clear why it's a shite system.

1 minute ago, DA Baracus said:

You say what I noted are 'just excuses', but that's an incredibly inflexible and odd attitude to have.

But they are just excuses. There are multiple ways now to buy a ticket, as I have already pointed out.

2 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

I imagine some folk are doing it to try to skipna fare, but not the majority

What do you think is the majority reason for people to board a train without a ticket is then, if you think it is not to see if they can get a freebie?

5 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

How would penalty fares be enforced?

Paid on the spot, or contact details taken and a fine sent to you like a council parking ticket. Like they do elsewhere. Failure to provide details being an offence.

Requirement for a person to give name and address 
13.—(1) Where a collector proposes to charge a person a penalty fare under regulation 5(1), that 
person must, subject to regulation 10(4), provide their name and address when required to do so 
by the collector. 
(2) Any person who fails to provide their name and address in accordance with paragraph (1) is 
guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 2 on the 
standard scale. 

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/187936.aspx#:~:text=If you board a train,a 'Penalty Fares Collector'.

As I mentioned TfL earlier, their Penalty Fare policy is listed here:

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/penalty-fares-and-how-to-pay-them#on-this-page-0

You will note also that, contrary to your claim earlier, Fare Evasion is a criminal offence.

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18 minutes ago, craigkillie said:


Not saying I disagree with you, but penalty fares exist in many countries around the world, including in lots of Europe. I think they may exist in some places in England too.

A lot of countries in Europe treat ticketless travellers much more harshly than anything I’ve ever heard about or experienced in Scotland. On the spot fines are common across Europe and they can be unreasonably expensive. 
 

When I worked in London I was travelling on the underground from Regents Street to Stonebridge Park daily. One morning at Queens Park the carriage I was sitting on had three plain clothes ticket inspectors come aboard. One of them approached me and asked if I had used an Oyster card or contactless payment at the last station I was at. At first I didn’t know if it was some sort of scam as they didn’t look official in the slightest, but the woman flashed a badge and said they were targeting the Bakerloo line for non payment of fares. They had a machine that could read Oyster and bank cards to see where you had boarded, and were going through the train to check every passenger. I always pre-loaded my Oyster card on a Monday morning so was travelling legitimately, but the penalties for trying to skip the fare on the London Underground can be quite substantial as well, especially for repeat offenders. 

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2 minutes ago, IrishBhoy said:

On the spot fines are common across Europe and they can be unreasonably expensive. 

That is the point...

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4 minutes ago, IrishBhoy said:

A lot of countries in Europe treat ticketless travellers much more harshly than anything I’ve ever heard about or experienced in Scotland. On the spot fines are common across Europe and they can be unreasonably expensive. 
 

 

Prague metro is bad for this, it is almost set up so non local people fail and they can fine them. Machine for purchasing your ticket is upstairs and if you don't know this and happen to head down onto the platform intending to buy your ticket you get treated as an evader for being down on the platform with no ticket.

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6 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

That is the point...

Aye I’m not saying it’s a bad idea as a deterrent, just that a €200 fine for the non payment of a €3.50 rail fair isn’t particularly reasonable. I’ve travelled by rail in Germany, France and Spain, and in Germany in particular the train stations aren’t set up like the way they are in Scotland, with ticket barriers at the majority of stations. It wouldn’t be beyond the realms of expectation to think that you could purchase a ticket on board, so in instances where a genuinely innocent mistake has been made then those sort of fines would be unreasonable. 
 

Having said all that, I’ve always found staff at train stations and on board European trains extremely helpful and understanding of any issues tourists have, and I think a bit of leeway would be shown to anyone who found themselves ticketless on board a train. I think the fines are more aimed towards people who try to repeatedly dodge their fares. 

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There are literally hundreds of unmanned stations on the Scottish network with multiple entry points, and to barrier them all and make boarding trains without a ticket inaccessible would cost an astronomical amount. You would then probably have to actually man every station incase of any fault/barrier failure etc.

Working on the railway, I can tell you from experience that the number of folk you see obviously fare dodging on a daily basis is mind boggling, and it's not always the young team and 'undesirable' looking types you would imagine. You can often see respectable and professional looking folks getting off at a platform then running along a few carriages then boarding again in order to try and avoid the conductor/ticket inspector. 

Fare dodging is a massive problem, much more so than you might believe, and conductors selling tickets is a big factor in reducing it. In an ideal world, paying before you are able to board is where the operators would obviously like to be, but with the network being as open as it is, onboard staff selling tickets will be the case for the foreseeable future.

I agree though that,in Scotland, a much firmer stance and penalty system for non-payment or repeat offending needs to be implemented. In the meantime, all the best to the guys earning a few extra bucks for selling tickets onboard and at least making a dent in fraudulent travel. Absolutely no idea why anyone can find reason to fault another working class person having the chance to make a couple of extra quid on top of their basic. A decent wage it may be, but still a working class wage nonetheless. 

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10 minutes ago, bobbykdy said:

Prague metro is bad for this, it is almost set up so non local people fail and they can fine them. Machine for purchasing your ticket is upstairs and if you don't know this and happen to head down onto the platform intending to buy your ticket you get treated as an evader for being down on the platform with no ticket.

I’ve never been to Prague and hadn’t read your post before I replied to the poster above. I must say that wasn’t my experience in the countries where I used the railways in Europe. Possibly the further East you travel the more likely you are to find yourself in the situation you mention. I’ve heard a lot of good things about Prague but I’ve also heard it’s absolutely rife with people trying to scam your money out of your pocket. 

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Just now, IrishBhoy said:

I’ve never been to Prague and hadn’t read your post before I replied to the poster above. I must say that wasn’t my experience in the countries where I used the railways in Europe. Possibly the further East you travel the more likely you are to find yourself in the situation you mention. I’ve heard a lot of good things about Prague but I’ve also heard it’s absolutely rife with people trying to scam your money out of your pocket. 

My dad made the very mistake I alluded to despite me warning him & double warning him before he went that you bought the ticket upstairs before heading down (old age brain.) Penalty for two people I think was about €50. Stubborn old b*****d said if he had been on his own he would have just refused to pay it & told them to arrest him. 😁

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2 hours ago, Detournement said:

Barriers still require staff eg if there are no staff at Argyle St then the barriers are open.

Ah right, so that’s why the barriers are open at Argyle St 

Wish they’d put Wi-Fi in that station

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2 minutes ago, 'WellDel said:

There are literally hundreds of unmanned stations on the Scottish network with multiple entry points, and to barrier them all and make boarding trains without a ticket inaccessible would cost an astronomical amount. You would then probably have to actually man every station incase of any fault/barrier failure etc…

The majority of the stations in the Western Central belt have barrier entry now, certainly most of the ones I frequent. If you are travelling from a station like Lochwinnoch for example, where there is no barrier, and travelling to Glasgow Central, then unless you come across a conductor on board and buy a ticket, then you will be unable to get through the turnstiles when you arrive at Central. 
 

One of the differences between the German rail experience and the Scottish one, is the number of conductors on board each train. We travelled from Düsseldorf train station multiple times, and noticed that every single train that stopped at the platform would have 2 or 3 conductors on different carriages, who would stand on the platform until all passengers were on board and it was safe for the train to move. That probably isn’t financially feasible in Scotland for a number of reasons, but I do think every train should have at least one conductor on board; to check tickets and allow ticketless passengers to purchase one, and also to maintain safety on board the train in a way that a driver would be unable to. 

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6 minutes ago, bobbykdy said:

My dad made the very mistake I alluded to despite me warning him & double warning him before he went that you bought the ticket upstairs before heading down (old age brain.) Penalty for two people I think was about €50. Stubborn old b*****d said if he had been on his own he would have just refused to pay it & told them to arrest him. 😁

A night in a Prague cop shop would have been a good story to tell to be fair to him. 

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Rail travel is a shambles across the board at the moment. I went down to Manchester on Tuesday, back up Wednesday. My Scotrail journeys between Perth and Glasgow were fine each way, but the journeys between Glasgow and Manchester with Transpennine were cancelled in both directions, meaning extra connections and a later arrival on Tuesday, and having to leave earlier on Wednesday in order to get home on the same day! Got on the Euston to Glasgow train at Wigan and it was rammed full. 

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I recently travelled on the trams in Manchester (TFGM) and paying couldn't be easier.

There are contactless pods on every stop (IIRC at the railway stations as well) tap at departure stop and tap at the destination stop, it was very cheap to travel.

Image of smart card reader

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10 minutes ago, die hard doonhamer said:

Rail travel is a shambles across the board at the moment. I went down to Manchester on Tuesday, back up Wednesday. My Scotrail journeys between Perth and Glasgow were fine each way, but the journeys between Glasgow and Manchester with Transpennine were cancelled in both directions, meaning extra connections and a later arrival on Tuesday, and having to leave earlier on Wednesday in order to get home on the same day! Got on the Euston to Glasgow train at Wigan and it was rammed full. 

I’ve had to sit/stand in the vestibule area travelling from Euston multiple times when I worked down there. The worst one ever was when I had been at the Lomachenko fight at the o2 on the Saturday night and had stupidly booked the 8.30 train to Glasgow for the Sunday morning. I hadn’t had a wink of sleep and lay in the most uncomfortable position in the vestibule for what felt like days. Genuinely one of the worst experiences in my life. I eventually got a seat on the unreserved coach after Carlisle but the damage had been done. 

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14 minutes ago, IrishBhoy said:

The majority of the stations in the Western Central belt have barrier entry now.

Maybe not as many as you'd think.

As an example, on one route through the central belt/west there are 25+ stops. Only 5 of those stations have barriers that would stop you accessing the platform without a ticket. Of the remainder, approx 15 have full/part time ticket offices but no barrier to prevent you from walking past without paying. The rest are completely open and unmanned. 

In the main, only city/major stations are protected to the extent that you can't pass through without a ticket. Thousands of punters chance it on a daily basis and onboard staff selling tickets are absolutely essential in the current state for trying to minimise fraudulent loss. (This obviously on top of folk who have genuinely been caught short of time and had to run/board at the last minute and who should, quite rightly, have the chance to buy onboard). A lot of folk on here, your good self excluded, don't seem to appreciate that and focus purely and bizarrely on the wages others are paid.

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5 minutes ago, 'WellDel said:

Maybe not as many as you'd think.

As an example, on one route through the central belt/west there are 25+ stops. Only 5 of those stations have barriers that would stop you accessing the platform without a ticket. Of the remainder, approx 15 have full/part time ticket offices but no barrier to prevent you from walking past without paying. The rest are completely open and unmanned. 

In the main, only city/major stations are protected to the extent that you can't pass through without a ticket. Thousands of punters chance it on a daily basis and onboard staff selling tickets are absolutely essential in the current state for trying to minimise fraudulent loss. (This obviously on top of folk who have genuinely been caught short of time and had to run/board at the last minute and who should, quite rightly, have the chance to buy onboard). A lot of folk on here, your good self excluded, don't seem to appreciate that and focus purely and bizarrely on the wages others are paid.

Just after I posted that it did occur to me that there isn’t as many barriered stations as I imagined. Even Paisley Gilmour Street doesn’t have barrier entry, although there is always staff checking tickets in order to access the platforms. 
 

As you say, there should definitely be a distinction made between the person who jumps on the train just as the doors are closing, and the person who lives in Ayrshire but works in Glasgow and tries to dodge the fair on a daily basis. When I’m going into Glasgow my local station has two ticket machines and an office, so I always have a ticket before I board. If the situation ever arose where we arrived at the station as a train was about to leave I wouldn’t think twice about boarding without a ticket, as 9 times out of 10 there is a conductor on board. 
 

I’ve never found myself in the situation of getting to Glasgow ticketless and unable to get through the barriers so I don’t know how that would play out. I imagine the staff that patrol that area will have access to a ticket machine, although you are then relying on the honesty of the passenger to tell them what station they boarded the train at. 

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