Scotrail

[Left Back]

3 minutes ago, Bert Raccoon said:

No wonder all those c***s on Inside Central Station have shit eating grins all the time. Few hours herding pissheads on a train to watch Scotland play Belarus before retiring to your mansion for some caviar and cuban cigars 

 

Would be a few minutes if the useless c***s actually ran some trains.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

9 hours ago, IrishBhoy said:

Would conductors have the legal authority to issue monetary fines in Scotland though? I believe only the police are able to issue fines under Scottish law, that’s why all these fines that come from parking companies aren’t legally enforceable. 
 

As much as it definitely is a problem, it would be a nightmare to enforce. Can you imagine a conductor attempting to issue penalty notices to a group of drunken guys without tickets. It wouldn’t be worth the hassle that would inevitably follow, and wouldn’t be fair to put a conductor in that position either. 

Theres loads of jobs which can issue fixed penalties like the glasgow litter wardens, dog wardens, environmental enforcement at councils, taxi licensing, water bailiffs have a power of arrest, fishing regulators. Probably some more but thats just off the top of my head. 

6 hours ago, Todd_is_God said:

More than once = repeat. That part isn't hard, and directly answers the question you asked.

As for implementation? Body cameras / CCTV etc can be used to identify people who give false details (in itself an offence).

I think people who dont have to rely on the interrogation of cctv/body cameras have unrealistic expectations as to the limitations and application of them. You rely on someone being able to identify that person, you cant just put it out publicly without the PF/Crown approving what you release too. The cost of this too would be crazy. Also there is no central database of people’s pictures to use to aid identification and even for me working in Criminal Justice theres no way id support such a disproportionate measure. 

6 hours ago, Todd_is_God said:

I agree with all of the above. Personally, as a poster mentioned earlier, I feel we are a bit of a soft touch when it comes to accepting shite behaviour, and the complete reluctance to do anything meaningful to reduce the instances of attempted fare dodging is an extension of that.

We are a soft touch, there are 18 year olds with in excess of 50 previous convictions including knife carrying/robbery/serious assault etc who havent even seen the inside of a young offenders institute. The way the justice system in Scotland is set up there is absolutely no way they would have a disproportionate system to hammer what is essentially a fraud offence. 

3 hours ago, IrishBhoy said:

Ok. Back to fantasy land then. So the conductor, who has absolutely no access to any sort of database in order to identify the passenger, and no authority to demand ID from them, pulls out his penalty notice pad and starts to write it out.
 

‘What’s your name mate your getting a fine for no paying for the train?’ 
 

‘Oh right am I? My name is Albert Square and I stay above the Queen Vic in Walford’ 

‘Ok good sir that all seems above board please pay your fine’. 

Do you know how much resource would be required to have someone sitting watching body cam footage trying to match the face up to a name that may not even be on the police national computer? Absolute needle in a haystack stuff. 
 

As I said earlier, in an ideal world all of your suggestions are fairly sensible. However, in the real world, where we currently live, they are completely unworkable. 

The only people I know who have the power to detain someone to confirm identity are police, immigration enforcement, NCA and customs and excise enforcement. All others including litter wardens rely on people being honest with their details, if you started issuing fines and people caught onto this everyone would be Homer Simpson 1642 Evergreen Terrace. Im not even sure its illegal to give someone the wrong details for a non criminal fine either, its not an attempt to pervert the course of justice because its not a criminal investigation, dunno its all a bit wooly. 

2 hours ago, IrishBhoy said:

Can just imagine the admin staff in the procurator fiscals office after the fare dodging crack down starts. 
 

‘I didn’t know there was a Sesame Street in Maryhill, and the guys name is Robert C Nesbitt’. 

Theres currently a 2 year backlog in non solemn cases at Glasgow Sheriff Court, reporting train fare dodgers in the way described (BTP do do this sometimes but not at the level being suggested) would swamp the justice system, its simply not economically viable to do this. 

[Detournement]

2 hours ago, IrishBhoy said:

On what planet is £500 a week not working class  
 

I don’t think you know what working class is tbh. Are you going to claim it’s middle class to give us all a laugh?

Plenty of people in Scotland think if you don't live in a scheme and have been in M&S Food in the previous 6 months then you are middle class. They would have a panic attack if they ever set foot in somewhere like Richmond.

There's zero point in going back to the 1970s (and definitely not the 1870s) because everything changed when Thatcher did the credit big bang in the 1980s and working class people got access to cheap money. 

 

Edited June 17, 2022 by Detournement

[DA Baracus]

31 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

This is the thing which is really odd. This forum is apparently a hotbed of socialism, equality and handwringing about the poorest in society but It's very odd to see people cheering when some of the highest paid public sector workers elbow their way to even more money at the expense of those at the bottom of the pile earnings-wise.

You're saying that people will get pay cuts if some working on the trains get a pay rise?

Oh, and what is the figure at which people are no longer allowed to ask for a pay rise? Is it £30k? £25k?

Edited June 17, 2022 by DA Baracus

[Cosmic Joe]

35 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

I think you know you are middle class when you cheer on higher paid workers elbowing their way to an even bigger share of the pie, knowing that those in the public sector on the lowest wages will get less money as a direct result.

I would say, accepting a 5 percent pay rise, when inflation is currently approaching 10 percent is a more than reasonable compromise. 

Would you accept a 2 percent pay rise in the current economic climate?

You have been a pretty strong proponent of looking after number one in the past. So what would you do if you were a train driver? 

[Left Back]

2 minutes ago, Cosmic Joe said:

I would say, accepting a 5 percent pay rise, when inflation is currently approaching 10 percent is a more than reasonable compromise. 

Would you accept a 2 percent pay rise in the current economic climate?

You have been a pretty strong proponent of looking after number one in the past. So what would you do if you were a train driver? 

The deal for train drivers is worth way more than 5%

[vikingTON]

23 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

You're saying that people will get pay cuts if some working on the trains get a pay rise?

The most vulnerable stand to lose public services if public sector workers get increases to maintain an unrealistic level of pay, because all that money ultimately comes from the same account.

If you'd argue that 'we should increase taxes - and above all, target wealth rather than income much more than now' then I'd absolutely, 100% agree with that. But right now that's not on the cards - there is no election nor a credible party standing on this platform - and so it's a zero-sum game. 

In terms of spending priorities, the needs of people working on the trains should not even be in the top 1000 right now. 

Edited June 17, 2022 by vikingTON

[Left Back]

19 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

You're saying that people will get pay cuts if some working on the trains get a pay rise?

Oh, and what is the figure at which people are no longer allowed to ask for a pay rise? Is it £30k? £25k?

No-one will be getting pay cuts.

There is a finite amount of money for public sector pay-rises.  Despite the witterings of the unions most reasonable people accept that a 10% across the board pay rise is both unaffordable and will also continue to drive inflation up.

Who knows what the average public sector rise will be this year but I’d be stunned if anyone else gets as much as train drivers.  They take a disproportionate share of the available money and that means someone else gets a lesser rise.

[red23]

52 minutes ago, Detournement said:

 

There's zero point in going back to the 1970s (and definitely not the 1870s) 

Why not? Rangers fans still think its 1690

[Todd_is_God]

58 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Im not even sure its illegal to give someone the wrong details for a non criminal fine either

Fare aversion is a criminal offence in the UK, though, as is giving false details, so you are wrong here. Granted an earlier poster pointed out this currently isn't the case within Scotland, but the SG could quite easily make it so if actually reducing fare aversion was something they wanted to do.

1 hour ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

I think people who dont have to rely on the interrogation of cctv/body cameras have unrealistic expectations as to the limitations and application of them.

I'm aware of the limitations of them.

There seems to be a bit of a huge lack of understanding of the purpose of penalty fares tbh, which is leading to people claiming it's just not possible to do anything in Scotland because you can't catch everyone.

[Eatmygoal]

I'm pretty sure nobody in the public sector (newly nationalised train drivers aside) expects inflation matching pay rises, but it I don't think 2-3% is unreasonable.

Maybe I missed it, but I don't remember this level of debate when it was the public purse bailing out most of the private sector in 2020/21. 

[welshbairn]

Looks like the lesson to be drawn for most people on here is that it's time to join a decent union again. Can't believe some of the stuff coming out here that a pound in the pocket of a railway worker is a pound less for a bin man . Thatcher's homely household economic analogies are coming back from the grave. If there are any limits incoming on executive pay and bonuses I must have missed it.

Edited June 17, 2022 by welshbairn

[Detournement]

12 minutes ago, Eatmygoal said:

I'm pretty sure nobody in the public sector (newly nationalised train drivers aside) expects inflation matching pay rises, but it I don't think 2-3% is unreasonable.

Maybe I missed it, but I don't remember this level of debate when it was the public purse bailing out most of the private sector in 2020/21. 

Exactly.

"Here's 50 grand for your cupcake shop. Don't worry about paying it back."

[Left Back]

11 minutes ago, Eatmygoal said:

I'm pretty sure nobody in the public sector (newly nationalised train drivers aside) expects inflation matching pay rises, but it I don't think 2-3% is unreasonable.

Maybe I missed it, but I don't remember this level of debate when it was the public purse bailing out most of the private sector in 2020/21. 

https://unison-scotland.org/unison-submits-pay-claim-for-nhs-workers-to-address-rising-inflation/
 

You’re very naive.

[HeartsOfficialMoaner]

Double the price of petrol and diesel so folks are forced to use the train then double the price of the train tickets so we can give the train drivers 10% more money.

 

Simples.

Edited June 17, 2022 by HeartsOfficialMoaner
.

[vikingTON]

31 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Looks like the lesson to be drawn for most people on here is that it's time to join a decent union again. 

A decent union - as I'm sure the 'we're all working class after all' contingent would agree - should actually prioritise the needs of the most vulnerable in society over the take home income of its comfortably well-off members. It should also value the collective good of all workers before its narrow, sectional interests. 

Railway unions are (for now, quite effective) syndicalists who on balance harm the rest of society with their medieval guild style antics. Narrow syndicalism undermines support for worker organisation in society rather than strengthens it, because the zero-sum game of how public money is distributed takes over. 

While undoubtedly acting from a weakened position in doing this, they are simply walking into a trap in the long-term.

[strichener]

43 minutes ago, Eatmygoal said:

Maybe I missed it, but I don't remember this level of debate when it was the public purse bailing out most of the private sector in 2020/21. 

The public sector did very well out of that very same bailout.  The public sector is still "recovering" from COVID and will never get back to the same level of (in)efficiency that they had previously.

[strichener]

33 minutes ago, Detournement said:

Exactly.

"Here's 50 grand for your cupcake shop. Don't worry about paying it back."

As opposed to the £2bln that the public sector managed to add to reserves during the COVID bailouts?

[vikingTON]

33 minutes ago, Left Back said:

https://unison-scotland.org/unison-submits-pay-claim-for-nhs-workers-to-address-rising-inflation/
 

You’re very naive.

Their argument is irrefutable given the relative starting salary and importance compared to driving a train - but the zero-sum game now means that it can't and shouldn't be met in full. We'll need the rest of the money to deal with all the other sectors in the same boat. 

[Left Back]

50 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Looks like the lesson to be drawn for most people on here is that it's time to join a decent union again. Can't believe some of the stuff coming out here that a pound in the pocket of a railway worker is a pound less for a bin man . Thatcher's homely household economic analogies are coming back from the grave. If there are any limits incoming on executive pay and bonuses I must have missed it.

You really have no clue how things work in the real world do you?