Scotrail

[Todd_is_God]

7 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

How would you issue fines though?

I've posted network rail's guidelines on this.

7 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

How could it be proven that they were trying to dodge the fare?

They've boarded a train without a ticket, which should incur a penalty. Had you read the links I sent you you would see that, for example, TfL issue an £80 penalty fair (reduced to £40 if paid promptly) for not having a valid ticket. If they can prove you were deliberately trying to dodge the fair this increases to £1,000. I imagine this is only really issued to repeat offenders, but it's certainly a deterrent.

9 minutes ago, IrishBhoy said:

that’s why all these fines that come from parking companies aren’t legally enforceable. 

They are enforceable. Rack up enough of them to make doing so worthwhile and they will take you to court for recovery of them.

13 minutes ago, IrishBhoy said:

As much as it definitely is a problem, it would be a nightmare to enforce.

Penalty fares are not designed to catch everyone, though. The idea is they are suitably large for those who are caught to make others think twice about trying it.

18 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

No one loses out if someone is charged for the journey they make.

You continue to miss the point. If I wanted to travel from, say Bellshill to Wester Hailes today, i'd have two options. Buy a ticket for £10, or board without a ticket hoping that I don't get caught, knowing that even if I do the worst case scenario is it costs me £10.

Without the threat of being issued a penalty fare, what incentive is there for anyone to do the former?

[jamamafegan]

Fare dodging isn’t exclusively a British problem, a quick Google suggests the Germans and Italians also have these issues as well. The article I read suggests fining people is flawed because some people simple give false details when being fined.

A big cultural shift in thinking is required here to get us to a point where fare dodging is looked down upon from society with disgust and it has become almost second nature to buy a ticket when travelling by rail. We will never have that way of thinking here for as long as the fare prices remain ridiculously expensive. Folk like WellDel will mewl about fare dodgers, I think the majority of folk don’t really care. Although the idea of a grown up person diving in and out of carriages or hiding in the toilets from the conductor is pathetically sad, I don’t have an issue with the ones who managed to pull a fly one by walking through open barriers at the stations and were not asked for a ticket onboard. I don’t have an issue with people profiting from ScotRails incompetence. Only when it gets to a stage where rail travel is affordable and fair will I rue the antics of the fare dodger, until then - dodge away and godspeed.

[IrishBhoy]

2 minutes ago, effeffsee_the2nd said:

Perhaps deserving of another thread but do people in Scotland get away with unacceptable behavior simply because we are a nation of shitebags who don't like real confrontation or feeling uneasy

 

on your other point, like the private car parks, charges are something that you should pay and failure to is a civil matter, Fines are something you must pay and failure to is a criminal matter.  It would depend which category they fall into 

I wouldn’t necessarily agree with that tbh, I think we have our fair share of people who don’t mind confrontation. Its slightly different for people who are at their work though, who most definitely don’t get paid enough to confront ticketless passengers and risk escalating the situation further, and could find themselves having to answer questions to their managers if they get themselves in a situation which turns in to physical violence, more than likely losing their job. I can’t see many people doing that for a £3.25 rail fare. 
 

I will admit I don’t know the technicalities that separate civil and criminal charges. I do know that private companies cannot legally enforce a monetary fine under Scottish law, and it’s why nobody ever gets taken to court in Scotland for non payment of parking fines issued by a private company. In England it’s a different matter and private companies can enforce these fines, and do take people to court for non payment.
Fines issued by police or traffic wardens are enforceable and must be paid, although I’m sure everyone already knew that. 

[Boghead ranter]

Jooking the train is, and has always has been in my experience, part of the sport of train travel.

[Hedgecutter]

I remember the good old (pre machine on every platform / barrier) days of boarding with the full intention of buying a ticket and waiting for "aaaaaany passengers on at Montrose or Arbroath", only to get a guilt-free free ride when a conductor failed to show.  Felt like a £16 lottery win.

Eta: I recently managed to cheat the barriers by tailing somebody through (the 'push here for assistance' machine was taking far too long to connect through).  Seemed easy enough, even with two large kit-bags.  I did actually have a valid ticket for travel, just that the barrier rejected it because I had just stupidly used it to get through the wrong set of gates a few mins earlier.

Edited June 17, 2022 by Hedgecutter

[IrishBhoy]

8 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

Penalty fares are not designed to catch everyone, though. The idea is they are suitably large for those who are caught to make others think twice about trying it.

It’s a great idea in theory, but there’s too many issues around how and who would be issuing these penalties. 
 

Say the policy comes in that boarding a train without a valid ticket is penalised by way of a £200 on the spot penalty notice. Who is going to issue that notice? Does the conductor take the passengers details without being able to confirm they are correct? The passenger walks away and a penalty notice is sent to John Smith at 27 Sesame Street, never to be seen again. Or do they call BTP and hope the passenger doesn’t disappear before they arrive? It would be a nightmare to enforce with the current infrastructure in place. 

[Todd_is_God]

1 minute ago, IrishBhoy said:

It’s a great idea in theory, but there’s too many issues around how and who would be issuing these penalties. 
 

Say the policy comes in that boarding a train without a valid ticket is penalised by way of a £200 on the spot penalty notice. Who is going to issue that notice? Does the conductor take the passengers details without being able to confirm they are correct? The passenger walks away and a penalty notice is sent to John Smith at 27 Sesame Street, never to be seen again. Or do they call BTP and hope the passenger doesn’t disappear before they arrive? It would be a nightmare to enforce with the current infrastructure in place. 

They seem to manage it elsewhere. Why can't they do it here?

As previously stated, it is actually an offence to give false details when being issued a penalty fare.

[welshbairn]

Mate of mine got caught on the tube in Munich without a ticket, got made to sweep the station platform.

[Hedgecutter]

13 minutes ago, Boghead ranter said:

Jooking the train is, and has always has been in my experience, part of the sport of train travel.

This is a new word for me, unless you accidentally hit the J key instead of the B beside it, in which case I tend to agree.

[effeffsee_the2nd]

33 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

I've posted network rail's guidelines on this.

They've boarded a train without a ticket, which should incur a penalty. Had you read the links I sent you you would see that, for example, TfL issue an £80 penalty fair (reduced to £40 if paid promptly) for not having a valid ticket. If they can prove you were deliberately trying to dodge the fair this increases to £1,000. I imagine this is only really issued to repeat offenders, but it's certainly a deterrent.

They are enforceable. Rack up enough of them to make doing so worthwhile and they will take you to court for recovery of them.P

Sorry to be one of these c***s, parking charges are enforceable but only in a civil court, the difference between Scotland and England is that up here it's the driver who is liable and not necessarily the owner, so they would have to A, have enough of a potential gain to bother taking you to court and B - be able to prove who parked the car.

It's actually coming to an end, folk taking the piss have fucked it for everyone now and the Scottish government have promised that owner liability is coming which will bring us in line with the rest of the UK.

On topic, these penalty fares would most likely be ignored by anyone who had the brass neck to just do so, but if the BTP were to take people to task it could be different, but there's no way they're going to take on a conductors role and it's out of Scotrails hands anyway. having a conductor is enough by itself to make most people pay and that's all they really need to do, there will be an acceptance of a certain percentage on non paying passengers vs the cost of eradicating it 

Edited June 17, 2022 by effeffsee_the2nd

['WellDel]

2 hours ago, virginton said:

Well no, if it's a massive problem currently, then conductors selling tickets cannot be a big factor in reducing it. They've been around for decades and yet the problem is at that scale. 

 

Well, aye. It clearly is a massive problem, and if not for onboard sales would be many £millions more.

 

2 hours ago, virginton said:

What does that mean exactly? 

In response to another poster who stated that the salary for the position was 'wild'.

Higher than the average it may be, but still very firmly in the working class bracket. I don't think earning a wee bit of commission on top of it would quite have them leafing through brochures for a new yacht.

1 hour ago, Todd_is_God said:

How can you work on the railway, agree that fare dodging is a massive problem, and still come to the conclusion that the best way to tackle it is to simply charge would be fare dodgers for the ticket they are trying to dodge

Fare dodging is a massive problem because there is absolutely zero penalty for getting caught doing it.

Bit of reading what you want into a comment to suit yourself going on here.

Never said at any point that it's the best way to tackle the problem, but until such times as they find better deterrents and a more effective fining system, it's one of the few options they have. 

[Left Back]

39 minutes ago, Boghead ranter said:

Jooking the train is, and has always has been in my experience, part of the sport of train travel.

Is the correct answer.

When I used to use trains If I knew I was getting on and off at un-manned stations no ticket would be bought.  Think I've only ever once managed to do a return journey and got away without buying a ticket from the conductor though.  Pretty much a waste of time trying it but I always did.

[Bairnardo]

26 minutes ago, effeffsee_the2nd said:

having a conductor is enough by itself to make most people pay and that's all they really need to do, there will be an acceptance of a certain percentage on non paying passengers vs the cost of eradicating it 

Aye, this. At some point lobbing more automated barriers and more staff at the issue will reach diminishing returns. Presumably they are roundabout that point now.

Also, devastated to hear about owner liability. Seething in fact. Getting it up the private parking cowboys is a similar little pleasure to bumping the train tbh. When is that starting?

[Boghead ranter]

37 minutes ago, Hedgecutter said:

This is a new word for me, unless you accidentally hit the J key instead of the B beside it, in which case I tend to agree.

See also hiding something "up your jooks/jouks" as in stuffing something up the front of your jumper (or hoodie these days).

Edited June 17, 2022 by Boghead ranter

[welshbairn]

Seems to me the best way to mitigate fare dodging, given the number of unmanned stations, would simply be to employ someone on a decent salary to check and sell tickets, with maybe a small commission to incentivise due diligence. 

Edited June 17, 2022 by welshbairn

[Jacksgranda]

11 hours ago, Todd_is_God said:

 

In 2022 with the technology that now exists then there is no excuse for boarding a train you haven't paid for.

 

F*** buying a train.

[Left Back]

14 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

Aye, this. At some point lobbing more automated barriers and more staff at the issue will reach diminishing returns. Presumably they are roundabout that point now.

Also, devastated to hear about owner liability. Seething in fact. Getting it up the private parking cowboys is a similar little pleasure to bumping the train tbh. When is that starting?

Still unknown but I think I saw something that said it was planned to be 2023.

https://www.parliament.scot/chamber-and-committees/written-questions-and-answers/question?ref=S6W-06095

[19QOS19]

1 hour ago, Todd_is_God said:

I've posted network rail's guidelines on this.

 

I only skimmed it but the gist is a guy who will administer a fine? For it to be effective you'd need to have someone with that authority on every single train. It wouldn't be financially viable. And again, even the threat that they may board your train won't put fare dodgers off. It will put off some certainly but the repeat offenders won't give a f**k. 

 

1 hour ago, jamamafegan said:

.Only when it gets to a stage where rail travel is affordable and fair will I rue the antics of the fare dodger, until then - dodge away and godspeed.

It costs about £6.50 return from Dumfries to Carlisle on our line. That's roughly a 70 mile round trip. There is absolutely no other way you could travel that distance for such a cheap price - you still get folk dodging the fare. Similarly it's about 90p between stations on the East Kilbride line for kids and they will dodge every single day. The price is irrelevant for a large portion of fare dodgers. It could be 10p and they would still try and avoid paying. Some folk just don't want to pay. 

[welshbairn]

8 minutes ago, Left Back said:

Still unknown but I think I saw something that said it was planned to be 2023.

https://www.parliament.scot/chamber-and-committees/written-questions-and-answers/question?ref=S6W-06095

Could be that this is code for kicking it into the long grass given its likely unpopularity politically.

Quote

I can advise that Part 8 (Recovery of unpaid parking charges) of the 2019 Act has not yet been implemented and there is still a significant amount of challenging and complex work to be undertaken before this part can become law.

 

[Bairnardo]

1 minute ago, welshbairn said:

Could be that this is code for kicking it into the long grass given its likely unpopularity politically.

 

Aye doesnt exactly sound like something we need to worry about in the near term. Good. f**k the private parking companies and those who hire them