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ScottR96

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1 hour ago, Bonksy+HisChristianParade said:

Not buying it mate. Does a bus driver take a commission if he charges people as opposed to letting them on for free? It’s the job to check tickets and charge people who don’t have one.

Just think the pay and conditions are very very good for what it is. 

Not being funny, but just not quite getting your point or what it is you're not buying. The pay and conditions may be good, but this is just a part of those conditions.

A bus has one point of entry directly opposite the driver. You don't buy a ticket, you don't get on. There's not the chance of the bus company losing multiple millions per year due to fare evasion.

Depending on the size of train, it can have 12 or more doors you can board through without having paid first. It's a form of revenue protection for the train companies to have staff onboard to check if you have a ticket, and sell you one if you don't. They'd lose millions more than they already do due to fare dodging if they didn't. They obviously perceive a 5% cut of those sales is a small price for them to pay in order to minimise potential fraudulent losses.

People can by nature be lazy  and productivity bonuses are obviously a tried and tested way of combating that. Doesn't matter if you're order picking in a warehouse or selling tickets on a train, the chance of a few more quid will always be an incentive to push a bit harder, and your employer gets the most out of you.

I'd imagine onboard sales amount to many millions per annum, and commission on sales incentivises them to do this part of the job and bring that revenue in. I'm guessing your gripe is solely down to the fact you see it as further enhancing what you perceive to be an already handsome salary and conditions package? It's how this type of job has always worked and you'll find the same no matter which train company it is. The application form's there if you fancy it.

 

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16 minutes ago, Detournement said:

If you don't have someone on the train selling tickets then you need to be selling tickets at every station which obviously comes with a cost attached.

Alternatively, you put barriers at all / your busiest stations.

Automated ticket machines, automatic barriers.

It works for TfL.

Or, alternatively again, you have random ticket inspectors who, when they catch someone travelling without a ticket, actually hand them a penalty fare that is sizeable enough to be a deterrent instead of doing what they do now which is just sell you a ticket.

If I was travelling to and from two stations I know have no barriers, there is currently no incentive for me to not chance not buying a ticket.

Edited by Todd_is_God
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Just now, Detournement said:

Barriers still require staff eg if there are no staff at Argyle St then the barriers are open.

True, but station staff are there anyway, and are not on a basic salary of £33k plus incentives.

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14 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

Alternatively, you put barriers at all / your busiest stations.

Automated ticket machines, automatic barriers.

It works for TfL.

Or, alternatively again, you have random ticket inspectors who, when they catch someone travelling without a ticket, actually hand them a penalty fare that is sizeable enough to be a deterrent instead of doing what they do now which is just sell you a ticket.

If I was travelling to and from two stations I know have no barriers, there is currently no incentive for me to not chance not buying a ticket.

All the major stations do have barriers. It's not feasible for all stations to have barriers.

It's also not feasible, or indeed right, to give someone a 'penalty fare' for boarding without a ticket. There are numerous reasons why that might be the case, but it also isn't illegal and conductors sell tickets on the train.

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Just now, DA Baracus said:

It's also not feasible, or indeed right, to give someone a 'penalty fare' for boarding without a ticket. There are numerous reasons why that might be the case, but it also isn't illegal and conductors sell tickets on the train.

Of course it's both feasible and right. It happens all over the world.

With digital, automated machines and manned ticket offices to choose from now there is absolutely no valid reason for using a service like a train without paying for it first.

You don't pay for a ticket for the cinema, theatre, football etc once you're in, sat down and have started watching it - why is it "not right" to apply the same logic to a rail fare?

The bit in bold is part of the problem.

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5 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

Of course it's both feasible and right. It happens all over the world.

With digital, automated machines and manned ticket offices to choose from now there is absolutely no valid reason for using a service like a train without paying for it first.

You don't pay for a ticket for the cinema, theatre, football etc once you're in, sat down and have started watching it - why is it "not right" to apply the same logic to a rail fare?

The bit in bold is part of the problem.

Machines could be broken for a start. Someone might be delayed unexpectedly and not have the time they thought they would to buy a ticket. Other reasons too.

If a conductor said they were going to fine me for boarding without a ticket, I'd just get off at the next stop and they'd get nothing (and if there were barriers I'd just get the cheapest ticket. If instead they sold me a ticket, I'd buy a ticket. I imagine I wouldn't he alone in that. Basically, they'd lose more money, or rather not make as much money, were they to start chucking around fines for getting on a train without a ticket.

No idea why anyone would have an issue with conductors selling tickets on the train. Folk are absolutely incentivised to get one before they board, but I fail to see the issue in buying one on the train. In my experience, few folk buy on the train, but it's utterly harmless if someone does and there is absolutely no issue with it.

Edited by DA Baracus
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Checking people for tickets is a conductors job. It will be in the job description. “Check all passengers for valid tickets for travel and railcards.”

Why the f**k should they be given a further monetary “incentive” for simply doing their job? If they aren’t checking people for tickets then they aren’t doing their job properly. Mental that folk think it’s reasonable they should be paid commission for this.

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4 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

Machines could be broken for a start. Someone might be delayed unexpectedly and not have the time they thought they would to buy a ticket. Other reasons too.

These are just excuses. If the ticket machine is broken, and the ticket office is closed, buy your ticket on the app.

In 2022 with the technology that now exists then there is no excuse for boarding a train you haven't paid for.

7 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

If a conductor said they were going to fine me for boarding without a ticket, I'd just get off at the next stop and they'd get nothing (and if there were barriers I'd just get the cheapest ticket. If instead they sold me a ticket, I'd buy a ticket.

I don't think you understand the concept of a penalty fare tbh. For them to be a deterrent, they can't be optional.

13 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

No idea why anyone would have an issue with conductors selling tickets on the train... it's utterly harmless.

It's not "harmless" though, is it? Almost everyone buying a ticket on the train now is doing so not because they couldn't buy one before boarding, but because they were hoping they'd get away with not having to pay their fare.

If revenue protection is the aim, then getting rid of the "if you get caught you can just buy the ticket you chose not to" option would be a good start.

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7 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

These are just excuses. If the ticket machine is broken, and the ticket office is closed, buy your ticket on the app.

In 2022 with the technology that now exists then there is no excuse for boarding a train you haven't paid for.

I don't think you understand the concept of a penalty fare tbh. For them to be a deterrent, they can't be optional.

It's not "harmless" though, is it? Almost everyone buying a ticket on the train now is doing so not because they couldn't buy one before boarding, but because they were hoping they'd get away with not having to pay their fare.

If revenue protection is the aim, then getting rid of the "if you get caught you can just buy the ticket you chose not to" option would be a good start.

Really unsure why you think it's an issue for conductors to sell tickets to the small number of people who board without a ticket.

You say what I noted are 'just excuses', but that's an incredibly inflexible and odd attitude to have.

How would penalty fares be enforced? Like I said, if that happened to me I'd just get off at the next stop. How would the conductor stop me and make me pay? They could maybe try the police but there's no guarantee that police would arrive on time.

It is harmless for conductors to sell tickets on the train. Again, utterly bizarre that you think otherwise. I imagine some folk are doing it to try to skipna fare, but not the majority. You can roll out your spiel again about the app etc, but for some folk in society there might be issues there.

If revenue protection is the aim then getting a fare out of someone sounds pretty reasonable to me.

I imagine the number of folk buying tickets on the train is really small, so absolutely not getting the issue here at all. It's all rather bewildering why anyone would see a problem.

Incidentally, some buses still have conductors...

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19 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

Really unsure why you think it's an issue for conductors to sell tickets to the small number of people who board without a ticket.

You say what I noted are 'just excuses', but that's an incredibly inflexible and odd attitude to have.

How would penalty fares be enforced? Like I said, if that happened to me I'd just get off at the next stop. How would the conductor stop me and make me pay? They could maybe try the police but there's no guarantee that police would arrive on time.

It is harmless for conductors to sell tickets on the train. Again, utterly bizarre that you think otherwise. I imagine some folk are doing it to try to skipna fare, but not the majority. You can roll out your spiel again about the app etc, but for some folk in society there might be issues there.

If revenue protection is the aim then getting a fare out of someone sounds pretty reasonable to me.

I imagine the number of folk buying tickets on the train is really small, so absolutely not getting the issue here at all. It's all rather bewildering why anyone would see a problem.

Incidentally, some buses still have conductors...


Not saying I disagree with you, but penalty fares exist in many countries around the world, including in lots of Europe. I think they may exist in some places in England too.

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Just now, DA Baracus said:

Really unsure why you think it's an issue for conductors to sell tickets to the small number of people who board without a ticket.

I think i've made it pretty clear why it's a shite system.

1 minute ago, DA Baracus said:

You say what I noted are 'just excuses', but that's an incredibly inflexible and odd attitude to have.

But they are just excuses. There are multiple ways now to buy a ticket, as I have already pointed out.

2 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

I imagine some folk are doing it to try to skipna fare, but not the majority

What do you think is the majority reason for people to board a train without a ticket is then, if you think it is not to see if they can get a freebie?

5 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

How would penalty fares be enforced?

Paid on the spot, or contact details taken and a fine sent to you like a council parking ticket. Like they do elsewhere. Failure to provide details being an offence.

Requirement for a person to give name and address 
13.—(1) Where a collector proposes to charge a person a penalty fare under regulation 5(1), that 
person must, subject to regulation 10(4), provide their name and address when required to do so 
by the collector. 
(2) Any person who fails to provide their name and address in accordance with paragraph (1) is 
guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 2 on the 
standard scale. 

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/187936.aspx#:~:text=If you board a train,a 'Penalty Fares Collector'.

As I mentioned TfL earlier, their Penalty Fare policy is listed here:

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/penalty-fares-and-how-to-pay-them#on-this-page-0

You will note also that, contrary to your claim earlier, Fare Evasion is a criminal offence.

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18 minutes ago, craigkillie said:


Not saying I disagree with you, but penalty fares exist in many countries around the world, including in lots of Europe. I think they may exist in some places in England too.

A lot of countries in Europe treat ticketless travellers much more harshly than anything I’ve ever heard about or experienced in Scotland. On the spot fines are common across Europe and they can be unreasonably expensive. 
 

When I worked in London I was travelling on the underground from Regents Street to Stonebridge Park daily. One morning at Queens Park the carriage I was sitting on had three plain clothes ticket inspectors come aboard. One of them approached me and asked if I had used an Oyster card or contactless payment at the last station I was at. At first I didn’t know if it was some sort of scam as they didn’t look official in the slightest, but the woman flashed a badge and said they were targeting the Bakerloo line for non payment of fares. They had a machine that could read Oyster and bank cards to see where you had boarded, and were going through the train to check every passenger. I always pre-loaded my Oyster card on a Monday morning so was travelling legitimately, but the penalties for trying to skip the fare on the London Underground can be quite substantial as well, especially for repeat offenders. 

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4 minutes ago, IrishBhoy said:

A lot of countries in Europe treat ticketless travellers much more harshly than anything I’ve ever heard about or experienced in Scotland. On the spot fines are common across Europe and they can be unreasonably expensive. 
 

 

Prague metro is bad for this, it is almost set up so non local people fail and they can fine them. Machine for purchasing your ticket is upstairs and if you don't know this and happen to head down onto the platform intending to buy your ticket you get treated as an evader for being down on the platform with no ticket.

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6 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

That is the point...

Aye I’m not saying it’s a bad idea as a deterrent, just that a €200 fine for the non payment of a €3.50 rail fair isn’t particularly reasonable. I’ve travelled by rail in Germany, France and Spain, and in Germany in particular the train stations aren’t set up like the way they are in Scotland, with ticket barriers at the majority of stations. It wouldn’t be beyond the realms of expectation to think that you could purchase a ticket on board, so in instances where a genuinely innocent mistake has been made then those sort of fines would be unreasonable. 
 

Having said all that, I’ve always found staff at train stations and on board European trains extremely helpful and understanding of any issues tourists have, and I think a bit of leeway would be shown to anyone who found themselves ticketless on board a train. I think the fines are more aimed towards people who try to repeatedly dodge their fares. 

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There are literally hundreds of unmanned stations on the Scottish network with multiple entry points, and to barrier them all and make boarding trains without a ticket inaccessible would cost an astronomical amount. You would then probably have to actually man every station incase of any fault/barrier failure etc.

Working on the railway, I can tell you from experience that the number of folk you see obviously fare dodging on a daily basis is mind boggling, and it's not always the young team and 'undesirable' looking types you would imagine. You can often see respectable and professional looking folks getting off at a platform then running along a few carriages then boarding again in order to try and avoid the conductor/ticket inspector. 

Fare dodging is a massive problem, much more so than you might believe, and conductors selling tickets is a big factor in reducing it. In an ideal world, paying before you are able to board is where the operators would obviously like to be, but with the network being as open as it is, onboard staff selling tickets will be the case for the foreseeable future.

I agree though that,in Scotland, a much firmer stance and penalty system for non-payment or repeat offending needs to be implemented. In the meantime, all the best to the guys earning a few extra bucks for selling tickets onboard and at least making a dent in fraudulent travel. Absolutely no idea why anyone can find reason to fault another working class person having the chance to make a couple of extra quid on top of their basic. A decent wage it may be, but still a working class wage nonetheless. 

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