welshbairn Posted June 1, 2022 Share Posted June 1, 2022 Quote Scottish Labour transport spokesperson Neil Bibby said: “It’s hard to imagine this shambolic ScotRail service getting any worse, but that’s exactly what will happen if the SNP fail to resolve this situation. This Government’s disgraceful lack of leadership has left services in chaos and industrial relations at an all-time low. However much the SNP try to pass the buck, blame for this turmoil lies firmly at their door. Rail passengers can’t keep paying the price for SNP failure – the Government need to get round the table with the unions and ScotRail and agree a fair deal for rail workers before services grind to a halt altogether.” The ASLEF Executive Committee have refused to put the Scotrail offer to their members. ASLEF sponsor the Labour Party. Just saying... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
101 Posted June 1, 2022 Share Posted June 1, 2022 7 minutes ago, welshbairn said: The ASLEF Executive Committee have refused to put the Scotrail offer to their members. ASLEF sponsor the Labour Party. Just saying... I don't know how that can be in the interest of their members to reject a good deal like that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted June 1, 2022 Share Posted June 1, 2022 (edited) 3 minutes ago, 101 said: I don't know how that can be in the interest of their members to reject a good deal like that. That's my conspiracy theory of the day, the Union bosses are putting wider political interests before those of their members. Edited June 1, 2022 by welshbairn 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted June 1, 2022 Share Posted June 1, 2022 Colour me shocked that the leaders of a British railway union are not in fact just pluckily scrapping for their workers' rights, but are in fact a bunch of common or garden syndicalists taking the piss for the sake of it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishBhoy Posted June 2, 2022 Share Posted June 2, 2022 (edited) 11 hours ago, Clown Job said: I’ll assume any new offer would do away with overtime and contract them to a short rotation If not, then why not The RMT are never going to allow their members to accept a settlement that brings in a 7 day working rota. The Sunday overtime/voluntary shift is the bargaining chip that is used over and over again as the knife at Scotrails throat. A 7 day working week, to the vast majority of people on here, will sound like a progressive and sensible solution that would bring the rail sector inline with almost every other industry. As I’ve said, having worked in ScotRail depots over the years, it might not be realised just how strongly this proposal is opposed by some of the workers, specifically the drivers and the higher paid employees. There is no benefit to a change in conditions that requires them to work an extra day, and more importantly takes away a situation that they can use as a negotiable starting point for any disputes. Edited June 2, 2022 by IrishBhoy 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishBhoy Posted June 2, 2022 Share Posted June 2, 2022 (edited) 11 hours ago, craigkillie said: The union would be negotiating the new contract for its staff though, it's just that individual staff would have an opt-out as would always be the case with any change in contract. I'd be amazed if every single train driver right now is on the same contract - there will be folk who have been doing the job since the 1980s. I think with regards to current annual salaries, I would be quite confident in saying that all train drivers contracted to ScotRail will have the same contract, with identical rates of pay. I can’t see the RMT allowing fully qualified drivers to be on a range of different pay bands or we would have heard about it long before now. A driver after 24 months of training will be on the same salary as a driver with 30 years service. There may be some differences in pension contributions that could be offered in the 80s or 90s but contracts will be almost identical otherwise. Edit - Also, to the people saying that an ultimatum should be offered which results in anyone who doesn’t accept losing their jobs, what do you think Scotlands railway would look like with about 6 drivers working on it, and a union as strong as the RMT sitting with literally every ace in their hand as the newly nationalised rail industry descends into chaos. I can only imagine the headlines that would produce for the SNP. Bairnardo has had a few sensible posts here, strongarming a full sector into accepting conditions which they don’t find favourable, especially one as strongly unionised as the rail sector, is just not going to come off well. It’s also not a great look to have people saying ‘well they are already well paid employees, they should be happy with their 4.5% and if they don’t want to accept it then they should be fired’. (Inflation is currently somewhere around 9%, so in real terms its a pay cut) Fortunately we live in a country where work conditions can still be negotiated, and I imagine that the people saying things like that don’t have any genuine understanding of the entire situation. It’s not something that’s going to be resolved easily or quickly, and it’s unfortunate for the Scottish Govt. that this has came around so soon after nationalisation, but you need to allow the workers their rights and not try and enforce conditions upon them because your inconvenienced by a train timetable. Edited June 2, 2022 by IrishBhoy 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10menwent2mow Posted June 2, 2022 Share Posted June 2, 2022 9 hours ago, Bairnardo said: I mean, thats collective bargaining for you. If Scotrail want to make an approach over other terms, they have to open a legal consultation process. Re your first paragraph, its where it leads. The reason why a union would seek to avoid this scenario is simple divide and conquer/thin end of the wedge. Its a very popular employer technique to dilute the power of unions. I think, and you can correct me if I am wrong, but it sounds like you have the enviable luxury of never having been utterly fucked over by your employer, or at least have one you trust/who trusts you. The stuff you are saying sounds sensible when you talk about it on a forum, but my lived experience is absolutely f**k allowing your employer to spilt the workforce along contractual lines. On a smaller scale, this happened when I had a previous job. Our pay and conditions were such that we were paid time and a half overtime, excluding Sundays and double time Sundays. New contract took away the double time Sundays but retained the time and a half overtime entitlement, some signed, some didn't but the staff who chose to retain double time entitlements on a Sunday were essentially barred from working on a Sunday. Within a year, the time and a half overtime had gone and any overtime was given as time in lieu. When I left that job they had to pay me for 6 weeks because of time accrued and I pretty much refused to work overtime unless it was on my terms. Had we had a proper union I think the fight may have been stronger. But we didn't and now that industry is a race to the bottom for minimum wage when 10-15 years ago it was a decently paid job. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leith Green Posted June 2, 2022 Share Posted June 2, 2022 ASLEF boy Kevin Lindsay on radio just now. On the current pay deal, he reckons they are actually fairly close to a settlement via negotiation - which is good. However, there was still the question of overall driver numbers, and he said that he didnt want his drivers to work additional days. Asked the question about what happens if they were fully staffed and move to 5 day working, would they then require compensation for "lost overtime". He wasnt 100% clear, but talked about how they would have talks about the lost 2 shifts per month overtime. Seems to me that he is looking for a "no overtime, but pay me the same" deal on that one. In summary, we may have agreement on the current pay deal in a week or so, but fasten your seatbelts if Scotrail ramps up its recruitment of drivers as that will take us again into this emergency timetable stuff................... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted June 2, 2022 Share Posted June 2, 2022 6 hours ago, IrishBhoy said: Edit - Also, to the people saying that an ultimatum should be offered which results in anyone who doesn’t accept losing their jobs, what do you think Scotlands railway would look like with about 6 drivers working on it, and a union as strong as the RMT sitting with literally every ace in their hand as the newly nationalised rail industry descends into chaos. I can only imagine the headlines that would produce for the SNP. I fail to see how the headlines would be any worse, than the omnishambles created by ScotRail management and workers' unions - oops, "workers of their own volition, not in any way tied to wage bargaining honest" - about 0.3 seconds after it went into public ownership. Quote It’s also not a great look to have people saying ‘well they are already well paid employees, they should be happy with their 4.5% and if they don’t want to accept it then they should be fired’. (Inflation is currently somewhere around 9%, so in real terms its a pay cut) Welcome to the public sector, and you are off your head if you think that 9% pay increases are going to be passed across the board. Where does the money come from to give every driver £55k per year, rather than £50k? Quote It’s not something that’s going to be resolved easily or quickly, and it’s unfortunate for the Scottish Govt. that this has came around so soon after nationalisation, It's not unfortunate at all - it's a syndicalist move by ASLEF (a Labour party backing union) to try and force the government to cave in and do whatever it tells them. Watch this tactic being resurrected in every election cycle, unless they are slapped down. Quote but you need to allow the workers their rights and not try and enforce conditions upon them because your inconvenienced by a train timetable. As employees working on an essential public service, they should have no more right to inconvenience people - read, stopping essential workers from doing their jobs and destroying businesses all over the country - than the police do. Which is to say none at all. In turn, they should have the same guarantees that the police do regarding job security and pay/conditions settlements. This is the only way to stop a nationalised rail industry being treated as the plaything of a handful of syndicalist union reps. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10menwent2mow Posted June 2, 2022 Share Posted June 2, 2022 17 minutes ago, Leith Green said: Asked the question about what happens if they were fully staffed and move to 5 day working, would they then require compensation for "lost overtime". He wasnt 100% clear, but talked about how they would have talks about the lost 2 shifts per month overtime. Seems to me that he is looking for a "no overtime, but pay me the same" deal on that one I'm presuming that the overtime is paid at an additional rate, say time and a half? Let's for example say they work 40hrs per week and the over time shift is 8hrs. If they do 2 per month then they'd be working 176hrs per month but getting paid for 184, if they want no overtime but paid the same, then they want paid 184hrs for working 160, which equates to a 15% increase. I know that's fag packet maths but surely thats not right. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd_is_God Posted June 2, 2022 Share Posted June 2, 2022 "I'm not doing overtime but I want paid for it anyway." Get fucked. By all means don't do overtime, but don't expect to be paid for it. To the surprise of absolutely no-one, this isn't about overtime at all, but an opportunistic money grab. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted June 2, 2022 Share Posted June 2, 2022 53 minutes ago, Leith Green said: ASLEF boy Kevin Lindsay on radio just now. On the current pay deal, he reckons they are actually fairly close to a settlement via negotiation - which is good. He seemed to be saying they could do a deal within the stated budget, which implies it's movement on terms and conditions he's after rather than more money. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted June 2, 2022 Share Posted June 2, 2022 1 hour ago, 10menwent2mow said: I'm presuming that the overtime is paid at an additional rate, say time and a half? Let's for example say they work 40hrs per week and the over time shift is 8hrs. If they do 2 per month then they'd be working 176hrs per month but getting paid for 184, if they want no overtime but paid the same, then they want paid 184hrs for working 160, which equates to a 15% increase. I know that's fag packet maths but surely thats not right. Time and a half?...and the rest! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteRoseKillie Posted June 2, 2022 Share Posted June 2, 2022 17 hours ago, craigkillie said: What has been described on this thread isn't "fire and rehire" though, it's simply a refresh of conditions with the option of the legacy contract available to those who want it. Nobody is suggesting binning off the staff who don't agree, but rather removing this form of contract organically over time as these staff retire or leave. The goal of the negotation may well be pay for the employees, but by using their terms and conditions as part of their negotiating technique, I think that becomes fair game for the overall negotiation. Otherwise the government can quite easily be left wondering whether they could repeat this gambit again in six months time and look for another payrise. The idea of "legacy contracts" has been a significant driver in Management being able to divide and conquer across various sectors in recent years. I could show you a random hundred Prison Officers, and there would be at least four, maybe as many as ten sets of T&Cs being adhered to - by Staff who are facing the same risks day after day, and for whom solidarity is not just a slogan, it's a vital component of their safety. This fragmenting of Staff alsomakes collective bargaining a fucking nightmare. -2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FFCinthearea Posted June 2, 2022 Share Posted June 2, 2022 The sooner we have driverless trains the better. These overpaid bus drivers don't deserve the salary they get at the moment. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10menwent2mow Posted June 2, 2022 Share Posted June 2, 2022 1 hour ago, Sergeant Wilson said: Time and a half?...and the rest! I did think that might be a bit conservative. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted June 2, 2022 Share Posted June 2, 2022 3 minutes ago, 10menwent2mow said: I did think that might be a bit conservative. A train driver who has been offered time and a half. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Left Back Posted June 2, 2022 Share Posted June 2, 2022 3 hours ago, Todd_is_God said: "I'm not doing overtime but I want paid for it anyway." Get fucked. By all means don't do overtime, but don't expect to be paid for it. To the surprise of absolutely no-one, this isn't about overtime at all, but an opportunistic money grab. A blind man could see this coming. We don’t want to work overtime or rest days but we want paid as if we do. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd_is_God Posted June 2, 2022 Share Posted June 2, 2022 21 minutes ago, Left Back said: A blind man could see this coming. We don’t want to work overtime or rest days but we want paid as if we do. Drivers choosing not to work overtime absolutely, 100% was off their own back and not organised though... Spoiler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honest_Man#1 Posted June 2, 2022 Share Posted June 2, 2022 25 minutes ago, Left Back said: A blind man could see this coming. We don’t want to work overtime or rest days but we want paid as if we do. I haven’t been paying a huge amount of attention on this, but I was astounded at hearing him this morning and giving off indication of this being the mindset. If this is genuinely their attitude then they can get fucked. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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