Scotrail

[Todd_is_God]

6 minutes ago, HeartsOfficialMoaner said:

Drivers don't want overtime.

They also don't want to work Sundays. They can't have everything.

[craigkillie]

Their current contracts don't include working overtime or Sundays, so surely they can have everything here?

The above post is fine in practice, but that new overtime-free, contract-based timetable would have no Sunday trains which doesn't really seem like a suitable public service.

The solution is to hire more drivers and to attempt to reach agreement on new contracts for the existing drivers which mean at least some are contracted for Sundays. It also means that this "no overtime" tactic can't just be used every few months.

[Todd_is_God]

14 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

Their current contracts don't include working overtime or Sundays, so surely they can have everything here?

The above post is fine in practice, but that new overtime-free, contract-based timetable would have no Sunday trains which doesn't really seem like a suitable public service.

The solution is to hire more drivers and to attempt to reach agreement on new contracts for the existing drivers which mean at least some are contracted for Sundays.

The solution is to bring the railway into the 21st century, and hire new drivers on contracts that allow them to be rostered in a way that enables the railway, as far as required, to operate 24/7 without the need for overtime. 

Simply hiring new drivers on the same contracts as the current ones won't solve anything.

However, it isn't these mythical new drivers that are currently complaining about their working conditions. It is the ones who were happy with their terms and conditions when they accepted their nice salary offers, but now want to complain about them because they are after more money.

Edited May 27, 2022 by Todd_is_God

[Big Fifer]

6 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

The solution is to bring the railway into the 21st century, and hire new drivers on contracts that allow them to be rostered in a way that enables the railway, as far as required, to operate 24/7 without the need for overtime. 

Simply hiring new drivers on the same contracts as the current ones won't solve anything.

Good luck with this. I was at LNER for around 4 years, and the "new roster" for the staff at the station was being negotiated when I joined and only finalised when I left. Everything takes an absolute age, not entirely aided by the fact the older guys, often higher up in the union, are very much of the "nothing must change" mindset. 

[DA Baracus]

Folk wonder why the Tories have been in power so long.

Just look at how easy it's been on this thread for their like.

[Stellaboz]

Pay are brave boys train drivers wages!

[craigkillie]

48 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

Simply hiring new drivers on the same contracts as the current ones won't solve anything.

However, it isn't these mythical new drivers that are currently complaining about their working conditions. It is the ones who were happy with their terms and conditions when they accepted their nice salary offers, but now want to complain about them because they are after more money.

Just as well that's the exact opposite of what I said they should do.

I don't think I have heard the existing drivers complaining about their terms and conditions, they are simply following those terms and conditions as per the contract they agreed to. Nobody is ever forced to work non-contracted hours.

Edited May 27, 2022 by craigkillie

[vikingTON]

9 hours ago, welshbairn said:

Unbelievable stuff here about a few train drivers holding the country to ransom for a decent wage,

Last time I checked, £50k per year was already a 'decent' wage, what with it being fully £20k above the average wage in Scotland. 

What they're actually wanting is £55k. And the people who are paying for this are:

- a swathe of businesses that lose tens of millions in this disruption, and

- the ordinary punter, who will be paying for this increase either through tax increases, reduced government services elsewhere and/or

- the passenger, through more eye-watering fare increases and quietly scrapping yet more advance tickets. 

A rather strange hill for the faux left to die on right now.

[TheScarf]

£50k a year not enough for them?  

[ICTChris]

How to UK train driver salaries compare to those in Europe or the USA?

[Todd_is_God]

35 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

Just as well that's the exact opposite of what I said they should do.

True, but, as @BigFifer already alluded to, it's not that simple as just hiring new drivers that can be contracted to cover the roster without any overtime.

We all know train drivers aren't actually complaining about their terms and conditions here btw, they are simply choosing to use them to assist them with an obvious money grab.

[Left Back]

3 hours ago, Empty It said:

 

 

Correct it isn't an issue because they're well within their rights to do so, if you have a problem with that blame the people who have left the system dependant on the overtime it's really that simple. Also this happy to do the overtime myth, on the odd occasion I've spoke to a train driver they've always complained about the amount of overtime they're expected and feel pressured into doing because if they don't do double their contracted hours they're "holding the country to ransom". If I was a train driver right now I'd be telling them to shove their OT up their arse aswell.

 

This is quite clearly rubbish.  If they weren't happy to do overtime this would have been pointed out by the union.  I haven't seen anyone from the union complain about doing overtime during this dispute.  To be fair to the government they have said that the reliance on overtime has to be stopped which is the only place it seems to have been mentioned.

The government/Scotrail have given the drivers/union the gun.  They chose to fire it so are just as responsible for the current mess.

[strichener]

2 hours ago, craigkillie said:

Their current contracts don't include working overtime or Sundays, so surely they can have everything here?

The above post is fine in practice, but that new overtime-free, contract-based timetable would have no Sunday trains which doesn't really seem like a suitable public service.

The solution is to hire more drivers and to attempt to reach agreement on new contracts for the existing drivers which mean at least some are contracted for Sundays. It also means that this "no overtime" tactic can't just be used every few months.

Or they could take the BA route and take on new drivers under different terms from the existing ones.  Then whenever overtime etc. is required the employer looks to use the newly contracted (on lesser terms).  If I were a driver, I would be extremely careful of overplaying my hand.

[The Naitch]

That’s some late night services for tonight and tomorrow night reinstated. Hopefully the rest of the ‘normal’ timetable returns soon.

[Eatmygoal]

6 hours ago, virginton said:

Last time I checked, £50k per year was already a 'decent' wage, what with it being fully £20k above the average wage in Scotland. 

What they're actually wanting is £55k. And the people who are paying for this are:

- a swathe of businesses that lose tens of millions in this disruption, and

- the ordinary punter, who will be paying for this increase either through tax increases, reduced government services elsewhere and/or

- the passenger, through more eye-watering fare increases and quietly scrapping yet more advance tickets. 

A rather strange hill for the faux left to die on right now.

55k is hardly excessive, given it's a skilled and probably at times very stressful job. They certainly have a huge amount of responsibility. I don't know if they get supplements for working antisocial hours but I suspect not. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The argument that the average wage is X amount lower isn't entirely relevant. Perhaps it should be higher as lots of jobs in this country are underpaid, or perhaps there are a number of people working 9-5 in lower skilled and less demanding jobs that don't necessarily 'deserve' to be paid more. 

[Leith Green]

2 hours ago, Eatmygoal said:

it's a skilled and probably at times very stressful job

I will give you the stressful bit, but its not like they need to steer trains round corners or  anything...................

[Sergeant Wilson]

1 hour ago, Leith Green said:

I will give you the stressful bit, but its not like they need to steer trains round corners or  anything...................

The technology obviously already exists to bin them all. Apparently the public aren't ready to travel on driverless trains, except they do in some parts of the country.

[welshbairn]

1 hour ago, Leith Green said:

I will give you the stressful bit, but its not like they need to steer trains round corners or  anything...................

How come nobody complains about airline pilots' wages? They're on about double and have even less to do. No having to land and take off at every station on the Fife circuit.

[19QOS19]

The technology obviously already exists to bin them all. Apparently the public aren't ready to travel on driverless trains, except they do in some parts of the country.

The network isn't entirely electrified yet. We're miles away from our train service being driverless.

[welshbairn]

2 minutes ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

The technology obviously already exists to bin them all. Apparently the public aren't ready to travel on driverless trains, except they do in some parts of the country.

Not sure how that would work for diesel trains on the far North lines. It's not the same as Docklands Light Railway and it would take a millennia for the line improvements to make the money back on a driver's wages.