Scotrail

[Blue Brazil Forever]

14 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

18 minutes ago, Blue Brazil Forever said:

According to the MSM they do

Well they're absolutely wrong. I think Avanti drivers are the highest paid drivers in Britain and their basic isn't even that.

I'm sure they will issue a correction.

[BigDoddyKane]

The transport minister on Radio Scotland basically sounding like a tory and blaming drivers for no working on their days off , ffs you couldnt make it up

[19QOS19]

I think Southern drivers get about £80k. They were on strike for ages a few years ago over the drivers operating the train doors, claiming it was unsafe. 
A number was eventually found that made those concerns miraculously disappear. 

That was when the drivers effectively fucked their guard colleagues. I'm sure the dispute was about needing guards on the train to operate the doors. Then the drivers were offered more money to do it and they accepted, leaving the guards with little fight.

The Sunday Times had a headline claiming it but they're probably including loads of overtime.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-80k-train-drivers-risking-scots-economy-xl7xrtkvc
 

Don't think anyone is claiming their basic is that but they were getting overtime as well.

They'll have to do a shitload of overtime to get that. And given the tax is 40% you'd have to be off your head. Though some will be right enough.

The headline reads 80k drivers. Joe Public won't bother to read into that any further. They'll see that figure and assume that's what everyone earns.

[razamanaz]

29 minutes ago, BigDoddyKane said:

The transport minister on Radio Scotland basically sounding like a tory and blaming drivers for no working on their days off , ffs you couldnt make it up

She just sounded the usual SNP, completely out of her depth and thrown under a bus - couldnae run a bath

[Bairnardo]

Thats not the media throwing a workforce with the audacity to take action under the bus is it?

 

There is no precedence for this whatsoever.... It is totally new.

[Left Back]

36 minutes ago, BigDoddyKane said:

The transport minister on Radio Scotland basically sounding like a tory and blaming drivers for no working on their days off , ffs you couldnt make it up

There was a guy on BBC yesterday morning (can't remember his name, some SNP minister) saying the shortage of drivers and pay dispute wasn't our fault and now it's nationalised it still isn't anything to do with us as it's being run by an arms length company.

ETA was this guy.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-61541604

Edited May 23, 2022 by Left Back

[scottsdad]

"Up to" 80k a year is not 80k a year

[welshbairn]

16 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

That was when the drivers effectively fucked their guard colleagues. I'm sure the dispute was about needing guards on the train to operate the doors. Then the drivers were offered more money to do it and they accepted, leaving the guards with little fight.
They'll have to do a shitload of overtime to get that. And given the tax is 40% you'd have to be off your head. Though some will be right enough.

The headline reads 80k drivers. Joe Public won't bother to read into that any further. They'll see that figure and assume that's what everyone earns.

It probably means theoretically working a whole year without a day off.

[eez-eh]

11 minutes ago, Left Back said:

There was a guy on BBC yesterday morning (can't remember his name, some SNP minister) saying the shortage of drivers and pay dispute wasn't our fault and now it's nationalised it still isn't anything to do with us as it's being run by an arms length company.

ETA was this guy.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-61541604

The whole “arms length” shtick feels like a way of taking all the credit when it’s going well and none of the responsibility when it’s going shite.

[Big Fifer]

I think the LNER drivers were on around £62k when I left 3-4 years ago, no idea what they're on now. A good salary - though salaries across the board on the railway are quite good. Shows what a strong union can do. Anyway, Scotrail being nationalised for two months is not the reason for the issues we're seeing. 

Edited May 23, 2022 by Big Fifer

[vikingTON]

32 minutes ago, Big Fifer said:

I think the LNER drivers were on around £62k when I left 3-4 years ago, no idea what they're on now. A good salary - though salaries across the board on the railway are quite good. Shows what a strong union can do. 

And hasn't the rail service gone from strength to strength too, with fares being reasonable and disruption caused by syndicalist industrial disputes being kept to a minimum. 

[strichener]

1 hour ago, scottsdad said:

"Up to" 80k a year is not 80k a year

It is for someone.

Ayway for a bit of context here, ScotRail drivers at the time of privitisation in 1997 earned £11900 basic.  In today's money that is around £19k.

Nobody has benefitted more from privitisation of ScotRail than train drivers.  Not franchise owners, other staff and certainly not the travelling public.

From 1997 to 2001 drivers basic increased from £12k to £23k and since then to £55k.  Even taking 2001 as a base year, the drivers still earn 62% more in real terms than they did back then.

The unions welcoming back public ownership only to find that it is a constraint on pay is just typical ideology over practicality.

 

[Leith Green]

1 hour ago, Left Back said:

There was a guy on BBC yesterday morning (can't remember his name, some SNP minister) saying the shortage of drivers and pay dispute wasn't our fault and now it's nationalised it still isn't anything to do with us as it's being run by an arms length company.

I am not sure how long it takes to employ, vet, train new drivers but I can hazard a guess that it is longer than the 7 weeks Scotrail has been in public ownership..............

On the basis that the staffing issue has been endemic in Scotrail for a number of years, a cynic might suggest that the timing of this work to rule has been calculated in advance by the union.

p.s. I am probably one of the most left wing on here, but as I said earlier - there are hundreds of thousands of employees (public and otherwise) who deserve a large pay rise before we even look at train drivers, esp if @strichener post is halfway accurate on their salary uplifts over recent years.

[19QOS19]

"Up to" 80k a year is not 80k a year

Of course not. But it's clear what the headline is trying to achieve. Folk will see 80k and that's what they remember: "Don't they make about 80K a year anyway?!"

It is for someone.
Ayway for a bit of context here, ScotRail drivers at the time of privitisation in 1997 earned £11900 basic.  In today's money that is around £19k.
Nobody has benefitted more from privitisation of ScotRail than train drivers.  Not franchise owners, other staff and certainly not the travelling public.
From 1997 to 2001 drivers basic increased from £12k to £23k and since then to £55k.  Even taking 2001 as a base year, the drivers still earn 62% more in real terms than they did back then.
The unions welcoming back public ownership only to find that it is a constraint on pay is just typical ideology over practicality.
 

Driver's basic wage isn't 55k either m8. And of course other staff within the railway have benefitted.

[Left Back]

11 minutes ago, Leith Green said:

I am not sure how long it takes to employ, vet, train new drivers but I can hazard a guess that it is longer than the 7 weeks Scotrail has been in public ownership..............

On the basis that the staffing issue has been endemic in Scotrail for a number of years, a cynic might suggest that the timing of this work to rule has been calculated in advance by the union.

p.s. I am probably one of the most left wing on here, but as I said earlier - there are hundreds of thousands of employees (public and otherwise) who deserve a large pay rise before we even look at train drivers, esp if @strichener post is halfway accurate on their salary uplifts over recent years.

This is true but it's also irrelevant.  The government have a responsibility to provide a fit for purpose public transport system. even when they didn't own it.  As has been pointed out if you don't have enough staff to run the service it clearly isn't fit for purpose and the government should have been stepping in to prevent a situation like this arising.  Staffing levels should be a contractual obligation to the franchise operator.

To then continue to claim it's nothing to do with them as it's owned by an arms length company is also utter twaddle.

[Big Fifer]

1 hour ago, virginton said:

And hasn't the rail service gone from strength to strength too, with fares being reasonable and disruption caused by syndicalist industrial disputes being kept to a minimum. 

6 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Aye. At the expense of their paying customers.

I'm definitely not saying it's a good thing for the public. The operating costs of the railways, given the very good salaries for most staff, will contribute hugely to the inefficiencies and high costs. Merely pointing out that, whilst newspapers punt headlines about Scotrail salaries in the usual desperate race to the bottom, that the reason they have good salaries is because of an incredibly strong union. Having worked for LNER/East Coast/VTEC when I was studying, for what they do rail workers are very well paid given the workload but I can't stand the press giving it the "Look at their massive salary!!!111" schtick. A large part of that union strength is aided by the fact that you can privatise railways all you want, but no free market really exists when there's only X trains and one company running them, so the unions can hold the TOCs to ransom really. 

[Left Back]

11 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

TBH, what is more troubling is the union bleating about pay at a time when the country is in the shite and people are genuinely struggling. Those on £50k+ household incomes maybe want to get a bit of perspective here.#

If the unions want better press, they could maybe show a bit more self-awareness of how lucky their members are to be earning enough that this crisis won't affect them.

If you're talking household then I'd think a lot of households will be over this when two people are working.  I wouldn't say it won't affect them.  It might not really hurt households on that level of income but there will be an effect.

[Zen Archer (Raconteur)]

3 hours ago, BigDoddyKane said:

The transport minister on Radio Scotland basically sounding like a tory and blaming drivers for no working on their days off , ffs you couldnt make it up

Government ministers should sort out their own affairs before trying to interfere in others.

Lorna Slater for example is on around £98K per annum and given her attitude to workload, I don't think she'll be coming in on her days off.

Scottish Greens' Lorna Slater 'didn't want to work every day' at COP26 in Glasgow | Glasgow Times

[Bairnardo]

22 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

TBH, what is more troubling is the union bleating about pay at a time when the country is in the shite and people are genuinely struggling. Those on £50k+ household incomes maybe want to get a bit of perspective here.#

If the unions want better press, they could maybe show a bit more self-awareness of how lucky their members are to be earning enough that this crisis won't affect them.

Yes, people should certainly feel guilt at their T&Cs and accept a few years of erosion at a time of record inflation, based on other peoples ill informed/arbitrary perception of how generously they are paid. 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

This is true but it's also irrelevant.  The government have a responsibility to provide a fit for purpose public transport system. even when they didn't own it.  As has been pointed out if you don't have enough staff to run the service it clearly isn't fit for purpose and the government should have been stepping in to prevent a situation like this arising.  Staffing levels should be a contractual obligation to the franchise operator.
To then continue to claim it's nothing to do with them as it's owned by an arms length company is also utter twaddle.

Network Rail is the responsibility of Westminster not ScotGov.

Some unionists conveniently forget that.