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No they weren't, they finished seventh.

Thistle have never finished second in the top flight.

And anyway, if it was as difficult arranging to televise matches as you say - and the more I think about it, you're probably right - STV couldn't have just hightailed it to Cappielow either, as you suggest in your previous post.

But it is still an intruiging piece of history.

Have no idea about the proticols of getting permission to film a game in those days. Was only giving a possible plausible scenario The logistics of filming a Scottish match at any level in those days wouldn't have been too taxing as it was not a live broadcast. There was usually only 1 camera and it wasn't videotape but old style reel of film. Said film then driven at whatever speed necessary to get it to the studios in Glasgow. That's why they rarely showed highlights of midweek games not played in or near Glasgow as I can recall. Whatever the reason the reason the game did end up being filmed.

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The fact that the fixtures around that time were wiped out by bad weather certainly isn't a myth.

A search of the Glasgow Herald archive on Google shows that a full card of fixtures were scheduled for each of Saturday 30th December 1961, Monday 1st January 1962 and Tuesday 2nd January 1962 (ie 3 games in 4 days). That makes a total of 54 fixtures scheduled across the period, and only 22 matches went ahead (with one of those being abandoned). That included just 7 out of 27 in the top flight. See the spoiler below for a full list of those fixtures.

Scotsport was also shown on New Year's Day, so if they filmed Partick Thistle v Third Lanark then it would have been shown that day. I don't have the listings, but I guess they probably did show that game given the location. There were Glasgow and Edinburgh derbies scheduled for New Year's Day, but neither went ahead.

The TV listings in that day's Evening Times said that Scotsport would include "highlights of two of the top games in Scotland", so presumably the Morton game would have been shown as well as the Irvine Meadow one. The programme aired at 6:15pm, with the surviving matches kicking off at 2pm, so it would have been very tight to get footage from Kirkcaldy or Dumfries in time, and you'd have no chance of getting there from Forfar or Montrose. According to the Evening Times, only 3 Junior Cup games were being played that day - the other two were Carluke v Cumnock and Burnbank v Bellshill. Most of the matches had been scheduled for the Saturday.

That day's edition Herald was pretty sure that all of the games in the Glasgow area would be off, so it seems fairly plausible that they planned to go to Killie v Airdrie and then shuttled down the road to Irvine once the game at Rugby Park was called off.

So, in summary, almost nothing in WaffenThinMint's lengthy post has much basis in fact, and the original post which he took issue with is probably accurate.

 

The fixtures were as follows:

Saturday 30th December

Division 1

Aberdeen P-P Raith Rovers

Dundee P-P St Johnstone

Dunfermline 7-0 St Mirren

Hearts P-P Dundee United

Kilmarnock 0-1 Rangers
Motherwell P-P Celtic

Partick Thistle 1-0 Airdrie

Stirling Albion 0-1 Hibs

Third Lanark P-P Falkirk

Division 2

Arbroath 1-4 Cowdenbeath

Berwick Rangers P-P Hamilton

Clyde P-P Queen of the South

Dumbarton P-P Alloa

East Fife P-P Forfar

Montrose 1-1 Ayr

Morton 2-0 Brechin

Stenhousemuir 0-2 East Stirlingshire

Stranraer 2-1 Queen's Park

Monday 1st January

Division 1

Airdrie P-P Motherwell

Celtic P-P Rangers

Dundee P-P Aberdeen

Dunfermline P-P Raith Rovers

Hibs P-P Hearts

Partick Thistle 2-0 Third Lanark

St Johnstone P-P Dundee United

St Mirren P-P Kilmarnock

Stirling Albion 3-0 Falkirk

Division 2

Arbroath 1-0 Forfar

Ayr 4-1 Morton

Brechin P-P Montrose

East Fife 5-3 Cowdenbeath

East Stirlingshire P-P Dumbarton

Hamilton P-P Albion Rovers

Queen's Park P-P Clyde
Stenhousemuir 2-1 Alloa

Stranraer 0-3 Queen of the South

Tuesday 2nd January

Division 1

Aberdeen P-P St Johnstone

Dundee Utd P-P Dundee

Falkirk P-P St Mirren

Hearts P-P Dunfermline

Kilmarnock P-P Airdrie

Motherwell P-P Stirling Albion

Raith Rovers 0-2 Hibs

Rangers P-P Partick Thistle

Third Lanark P-P Celtic

Division 2

Albion Rovers P-P Queen's Park

Alloa A0-4A East Fife (abandoned after 65 minutes)

Clyde P-P Hamilton

Cowdenbeath P-P Stenhousemuir

Dumbarton P-P Berwick Rangers

Forfar 4-2 Brechin

Montrose 2-0 Arbroath

Morton 0-1 Stranraer

Queen of the South 2-1 Ayr

Edited by craigkillie
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Meadow Park has traditionally had one of the best pitches in Ayrshire if not more widespread and it is known in the past for both Rugby Park and Somerset to be off and Meadow Park on.

And that can be assisted with different weather in the areas.

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Craigkillie will be right. There is no way they would have intended to show a Junior Cup game over senior New Year matches.

According to the SJFA centenary book that game and a Cambuslang v Carluke replay in 1971 (again presumably just highlights) were filmed for TV.

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No they weren't, they finished seventh.

Thistle have never finished second in the top flight.

And anyway, if it was as difficult arranging to televise matches as you say - and the more I think about it, you're probably right - STV couldn't have just hightailed it to Cappielow either, as you suggest in your previous post.

But it is still an intruiging piece of history.

D'oh!

That'll teach me not to look at the Statto page when half asleep and confuse that week's table with the final one (then again if Airdrie could finish second four or five times anything was possible). Still find it freaky to see the Plastics sitting second in the top tier at any time.

Meadow Park has traditionally had one of the best pitches in Ayrshire if not more widespread and it is known in the past for both Rugby Park and Somerset to be off and Meadow Park on.

And that can be assisted with different weather in the areas.

Well bugger me with a dill cucumber, I live & learn!

Ironically enough, when rechecking that Statto link, I found confirmation from the horse's mouth (ie. Medda's) of the weather at the time, courtesy of the local rag's Junior coverage section (with a cartoon which resembled some of those old 19th century sports papers):

11029120863_6eb23a1b5a_z.jpg

Am off now to stand in the corner with my dunce cap.

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Craigkillie will be right. There is no way they would have intended to show a Junior Cup game over senior New Year matches.

According to the SJFA centenary book that game and a Cambuslang v Carluke replay in 1971 (again presumably just highlights) were filmed for TV.

Wait, what?

So there's the possibility that the legendary Clara Kay may have been immortalised in celluloid?

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D'oh!

That'll teach me not to look at the Statto page when half asleep and confuse that week's table with the final one (then again if Airdrie could finish second four or five times anything was possible). Still find it freaky to see the Plastics sitting second in the top tier at any time.

Am off now to stand in the corner with my dunce cap.

If you'd said Thistle had finished third I might not have bothered checking, as I knew they had finished 3rd once ( it was actually the following season, 1962/63) but saying that they finished second rang alarm bells!

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  • 5 months later...

I remember the Highland League cup final being broadcast a few times in the late 80s/early 90s on Grampian

I mind Frank Gilfeather commentating on Huntly v Fraserburgh and making out as if it was Heysel because somebody in the crowd had a whistle.

This is all I can find which is highlights but I'm certain some if them were live or as live

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  • 3 years later...
On 27/01/2016 at 20:29, WaffenThinMint said:

Um, so the STV van went down to Kilmarnock, only for the match to be called off, so they quickly arranged with Irvine Meadow to come over at ultra short notice and record that game instead?

You are aware the logistics involved of organising the recording of a football match in those days, including getting the prior consent of the club (clubs weren't mad keen on the cameras in those days) back in the days of old fashioned telecommunications)? To say nothing of how the hell would the weather wipe out Kilmarnock yet not Irvine a mere six miles away?

Furthermore, Plastic Whistle were playing the Hi-Hi the day before - Partick (unbelievable as it may sound) were a big club that year (they were to finish second) and this was the Third Lanark side which the year before finished 3rd with 100 goals scored. Under the circumstances of the weather (supposedly), doesn't it seem more plausible they would have filmed the Glasgow match fifteen minutes from their then Cowcaddens base to be safe?

Frankly, I'm sceptical about any last minute change. In fact, considering there were five 2nd Division matches on New Years Day and four the following day (including those home call off favourites at the slightest sign of bad weather Arbroath, Forfar, Montrose & Stenhousemuir), I'm beginning to wonder whether the bad weather story is true at all: it appears little more than the repetition - almost word for word - of Ronnie McDevitt's ill researched excuse for Scotsport's coverage of the Medda match in his book "Except for Viewers In Scotland".

There is of course another possibility: the shambolic nature of STV's footballing coverage in their infancy meaning Irvine Meadow was literally the only club they were able to speak to over the Christmas break and get any sort of consent for coverage at all.

The more you think about it, the more intriguing the story becomes. A long shot, MeadowXI, but is there anyone from those days at Irvine Meadow who remembers the full circumstances of the STV visit?

You are very much mistaken regarding what you refer to as `the logistics involved.'

The fixtures for televising were mutually  agreed between STV and BBC Scotland on a monthly basis but in the event of postponements there was no great bureaucracy to navigate. A positive response to a short notice telephone call was sufficient. 

Much later, on 31st October 1970, STV had an agreement to cover Hearts V Falkirk.  The Tynecastle fixture was the victim of a waterlogged pitch which saw a quick phone call and a dash to Central Park before the Cowdenbeath V St Johnstone game was also rained off.

Determined to capture some Scottish action for Scotsport viewers - without which they would not have been allowed to feature English football (Arsenal V Derby) - Arthur Montford and his camera crew sped to the Second Division game between Stenhousemuir and East Fife - arriving just before half time with the teams level at 2-2.

Their efforts were rewarded when the second half served up three goals as the home team won by the odd goal in seven.

PS I am Ronnie McDevitt

Edited by Anfield 1977
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On 09/08/2019 at 17:48, Anfield 1977 said:

You are very much mistaken regarding what you refer to as `the logistics involved.'

The fixtures for televising were mutually  agreed between STV and BBC Scotland on a monthly basis but in the event of postponements there was no great bureaucracy to navigate. A positive response to a short notice telephone call was sufficient. 

Much later, on 31st October 1970, STV had an agreement to cover Hearts V Falkirk.  The Tynecastle fixture was the victim of a waterlogged pitch which saw a quick phone call and a dash to Central Park before the Cowdenbeath V St Johnstone game was also rained off.

Determined to capture some Scottish action for Scotsport viewers - without which they would not have been allowed to feature English football (Arsenal V Derby) - Arthur Montford and his camera crew sped to the Second Division game between Stenhousemuir and East Fife - arriving just before half time with the teams level at 2-2.

Their efforts were rewarded when the second half served up three goals as the home team won by the odd goal in seven.

PS I am Ronnie McDevitt

This reminds me of this scene:

 

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For anyone still interested in this old thread here are my notes of non league clubs featured on Scottish TV from 1858-78 taken from my research on televised matches.

This is not to be considered extensive as there would likely have been others.

The Scotsport team were always keen to promote the Juniors as the roots of their football coverage began with the Junior Cup before they negotiated a contract to cover Scottish League matches. 

1958

02  January STV Sportsdesk  18.00-18.30 Irvine Meadow 4 Fauldhouse Untied 2 (Scottish Junior Cup round 4) NOTE – These were the first Scottish matches of any level Junior or Senior to feature on Scotsport

04 January  STV Sportsdesk 17.15-17.40 Clydebank 2 Benburb 0 (Scottish Junior Cup round 4)

06 December  Scotsport 22.00-22.15 Muirkirk 1 Glencairn 2 (Junior Cup, third round)

17 December  Scotsport  22.45-23.00 Rangers 5 Scottish Junior Select 1

1959

02 May   STV Scotsport 22.00-22.35 Johnstone Burgh 0 Shettleston 1 (Junior Cup semi final, played at Celtic Park0) 

16 May Scotsport 22.05-22.35 Shettleston 1 Irvine Meadow 2 (Junior Cup Final) Britain V USA Walker Cup at Muirfield

1960

21 May Scotsport  22.00-22.30 St Andrews University 3 Greenock Juniors 1 (Junior Cup Final, played at HampdenPark)

1962

28 April  Scotsport 22.00-22.35 Two Scottish league matches including St Johnstone 0 Dundee 3 plus film of the Junior Cup Semi-Final Glenafton 0 Kirkintilloch Rob Roy 1 (played at Rugby Park)

19 May Scotsport 22.00-22.30 `film highlights of the Junior Cup Final’ Kirkintilloch Rob Roy 1 Renfrew Juniors 1

1963

18 May  Scotsport 22.05-22.35 Junior Cup Final Glenafton 1 Irvine Meadow 2

1964

16 May Scotsport 22.10-22.40 Junior Cup Final Cambuslang Rangers 1 Johnstone Burgh 1 played at Hampden Park also featuring the Summer Cup matches

1965

27 January  Scotsport 22.40-23.25 Ayr United 4 Keith 2 (Scottish Cup second preliminary round replay),

15 May  Scotsport 22.10-23.05 Junior Cup Final Bailleston 1 Linlithgow Rose 4 and Summer Cup - `film of this afternoons matches’ 

1966

21 May Scotsport 22.05-22.15 Junior Cup Final Whitburn 1 Bonnrigg Rose 1 (played at Hampden Park)

22 May `Scotsport Special’ 16.05-16.35 film of previous days Junior Cup Final and interviews with officials and players of both teams

1967

STV  `Scotsport Special’ 14.50-15.45 FA Cup Final Chelsea  1 Tottenham 2  (Played previous day, commentary by Alex Cameron) and Junior Cup Final Kilsyth Rangers 3 Glencairn Rutherglen 1 (commentary by Archie Aikman)

1969

19 April Sportsreel 22.00-22.45 Celtic 2 Airdrie 2 & Cambuslang Rangers 1 Irvine Meadow 1 (Scottish Junior Cup semi final, played at Firhill)

1971

10 April   Scottish Junior Cup quarter final replay Carluke 2 Cambuslang 3 shown during either Sportsreel 22.05-22.35 or STVs `Match Report’ 22.10 - 22.30

1973

28 April  29/04 Scotsport 14.00-15.25 Rangers 2 East Fife 0, Hibs 0 Celtic 3, Cambuslang Rangers 2 Irvine Meadow 2 (Junior Cup Final, played at Hampden Park) & Liverpool 0 Leicester 0

1974

27 April  Scotsport 14.10-15.35 Scottish Junior Cup Final Cambuslang Rangers 3 Linlithgow Rose 1 & Man Utd 0 Man City 1 (abandoned)

1975

26 April  Scotsport 14.10-15.25 Scottish Junior Cup Final Rutherglen Glencairn 0 Glenrothes 1, Aberdeen 4 Clyde 1  & Derby 0 Carlisle 0

1976

24 April  Scotsport 14.35-15.50 Boness 3 Darvel 0 (Junior Cup Final, played at Hampden Park)

1977

21 May STV `Scottish Junior Cup Final’ 14.45-17.10 Kirkintilloch Rob Roy 3  Kilbirnie Ladeside 1 Live from Hampden Park

1978

27 May STV World of Sport 12.30-17.05 included live coverage of Scottish Junioir Cup Final Bonnyrigg Rose 1 Stonehouse Violet 0 (Played at Hampden Park) 15.00-16.55. NOTE Junior Cup Final only shown in STV region. All other ITV regions including Grampian featured live coverage of the Schoolboys International from Wembley at the same time. Result England 3 Scotland 0

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  • 4 months later...
On 12/08/2019 at 20:33, Anfield 1977 said:

For anyone still interested in this old thread here are my notes of non league clubs featured on Scottish TV from 1858-78 taken from my research on televised matches.

This is not to be considered extensive as there would likely have been others.

The Scotsport team were always keen to promote the Juniors as the roots of their football coverage began with the Junior Cup before they negotiated a contract to cover Scottish League matches. 

1958

02  January STV Sportsdesk  18.00-18.30 Irvine Meadow 4 Fauldhouse Untied 2 (Scottish Junior Cup round 4) NOTE – These were the first Scottish matches of any level Junior or Senior to feature on Scotsport

04 January  STV Sportsdesk 17.15-17.40 Clydebank 2 Benburb 0 (Scottish Junior Cup round 4)

06 December  Scotsport 22.00-22.15 Muirkirk 1 Glencairn 2 (Junior Cup, third round)

17 December  Scotsport  22.45-23.00 Rangers 5 Scottish Junior Select 1

1959

02 May   STV Scotsport 22.00-22.35 Johnstone Burgh 0 Shettleston 1 (Junior Cup semi final, played at Celtic Park0) 

16 May Scotsport 22.05-22.35 Shettleston 1 Irvine Meadow 2 (Junior Cup Final) Britain V USA Walker Cup at Muirfield

1960

21 May Scotsport  22.00-22.30 St Andrews University 3 Greenock Juniors 1 (Junior Cup Final, played at HampdenPark)

1962

28 April  Scotsport 22.00-22.35 Two Scottish league matches including St Johnstone 0 Dundee 3 plus film of the Junior Cup Semi-Final Glenafton 0 Kirkintilloch Rob Roy 1 (played at Rugby Park)

19 May Scotsport 22.00-22.30 `film highlights of the Junior Cup Final’ Kirkintilloch Rob Roy 1 Renfrew Juniors 1

1963

18 May  Scotsport 22.05-22.35 Junior Cup Final Glenafton 1 Irvine Meadow 2

1964

16 May Scotsport 22.10-22.40 Junior Cup Final Cambuslang Rangers 1 Johnstone Burgh 1 played at Hampden Park also featuring the Summer Cup matches

1965

27 January  Scotsport 22.40-23.25 Ayr United 4 Keith 2 (Scottish Cup second preliminary round replay),

15 May  Scotsport 22.10-23.05 Junior Cup Final Bailleston 1 Linlithgow Rose 4 and Summer Cup - `film of this afternoons matches’ 

1966

21 May Scotsport 22.05-22.15 Junior Cup Final Whitburn 1 Bonnrigg Rose 1 (played at Hampden Park)

22 May `Scotsport Special’ 16.05-16.35 film of previous days Junior Cup Final and interviews with officials and players of both teams

1967

STV  `Scotsport Special’ 14.50-15.45 FA Cup Final Chelsea  1 Tottenham 2  (Played previous day, commentary by Alex Cameron) and Junior Cup Final Kilsyth Rangers 3 Glencairn Rutherglen 1 (commentary by Archie Aikman)

1969

19 April Sportsreel 22.00-22.45 Celtic 2 Airdrie 2 & Cambuslang Rangers 1 Irvine Meadow 1 (Scottish Junior Cup semi final, played at Firhill)

1971

10 April   Scottish Junior Cup quarter final replay Carluke 2 Cambuslang 3 shown during either Sportsreel 22.05-22.35 or STVs `Match Report’ 22.10 - 22.30

1973

28 April  29/04 Scotsport 14.00-15.25 Rangers 2 East Fife 0, Hibs 0 Celtic 3, Cambuslang Rangers 2 Irvine Meadow 2 (Junior Cup Final, played at Hampden Park) & Liverpool 0 Leicester 0

1974

27 April  Scotsport 14.10-15.35 Scottish Junior Cup Final Cambuslang Rangers 3 Linlithgow Rose 1 & Man Utd 0 Man City 1 (abandoned)

1975

26 April  Scotsport 14.10-15.25 Scottish Junior Cup Final Rutherglen Glencairn 0 Glenrothes 1, Aberdeen 4 Clyde 1  & Derby 0 Carlisle 0

1976

24 April  Scotsport 14.35-15.50 Boness 3 Darvel 0 (Junior Cup Final, played at Hampden Park)

1977

21 May STV `Scottish Junior Cup Final’ 14.45-17.10 Kirkintilloch Rob Roy 3  Kilbirnie Ladeside 1 Live from Hampden Park

1978

27 May STV World of Sport 12.30-17.05 included live coverage of Scottish Junioir Cup Final Bonnyrigg Rose 1 Stonehouse Violet 0 (Played at Hampden Park) 15.00-16.55. NOTE Junior Cup Final only shown in STV region. All other ITV regions including Grampian featured live coverage of the Schoolboys International from Wembley at the same time. Result England 3 Scotland 0

Would that have been deemed a big achievement back in the day, a University team winning the Junior Cup, assuming the team was just restricted to students?

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This one is also incorrect...

1977

21 May STV `Scottish Junior Cup Final’ 14.45-17.10 Kirkintilloch Rob Roy 3  Kilbirnie Ladeside 1 Live from Hampden Park

The result was KRR 1 - Kilbirnie Ladeside 3....rather than the other way around.

Maybe Mr. McDevitts tireless research wasn't as accurate or extensive as suggested. 😉

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On 04/01/2020 at 08:37, BukyOHare said:

Would that have been deemed a big achievement back in the day, a University team winning the Junior Cup, assuming the team was just restricted to students?

Yes well spotted BulkyOHare. The report I checked had a headline of St Andrews Un. 3 Greenock J. 1

Made the obvious, but incorrect, connection between the town and its University! 

image.thumb.png.02b50f772261c52467d37f9dea3c6b1e.png

 

Edited by Anfield 1977
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Another match that might prove the Irvine micro-climate theory was on Saturday 29 December 1962.  This time it was the turn of Irvine Victoria to host the television cameras. Again, the Senior programme had been decimated by the weather. Vics lost 0-6 to Glenafton Athletic in the Junior Cup with each club receiving £52 10s 0d from STV.

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18 hours ago, bluedragon said:

Another match that might prove the Irvine micro-climate theory was on Saturday 29 December 1962.  This time it was the turn of Irvine Victoria to host the television cameras. Again, the Senior programme had been decimated by the weather. Vics lost 0-6 to Glenafton Athletic in the Junior Cup with each club receiving £52 10s 0d from STV.

This figure would be consistent with the then agreed rate for a ten minute edit of a league match, which was 100 Guineas to be split between both teams which concurs with your total of £105. Scottish Cup matches and internationals were obviously more expensive and commanded higher fees.

I have no data regarding televised matches for that particular Saturday, 29/12/1962,  but among the six  First Division  fixtures to go ahead were Celtic V Falkirk, St Mirren V Rangers and Partick V Kilmarnock.  There were just three postponements in Division 1 - the games at Airdrie, Dundee and Dunfermline.

I suspect the weather may not even have been a factor in this instance and that Scotsport may have planned to cover the Junior Cup game regardless of postponements.

It is worth pointing out that both Sportsreel and Scotsport were permitted to broadcast ten minutes of two senior matches at this point and later that season the STV show featured two first division games PLUS the Junior Cup semi final between Glenafton and Kirkintilloch Rob Roy.

Edited by Anfield 1977
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